Horner under investigation

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P. Cornelius Scipio
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#376

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Bottom post of the previous page:

Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago

Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
This is trial by public opinion
I am not an expert on how mind of female species works, however if the lady wants revenge, than it is reasonable to presume, she has a reason for it. Let them to reveal all (I doubt they will), and we can make our minds if it was worth it. From legal point of view I need to relay on your expertise. I came out from automotive industry, and this kind of aberrant behaviour is new to me. She changed reportedly lawyer(s), so I am assuming she is acting under their supervision.
I would be more inclined to believe that it's about how the minds of Messrs Helmut Marko and Jos Verstappen work.

I feel for that poor woman, to me it looks as if she lost a highly paid job (and risks ruining her reputation) for the little games of someone who took advantage of her
CH is repeatably denying charges raised against him. Aren't you intrigued what it is he didn't do, yet female involved is really p***** because of it?
an independent KC looked into this and found nothing against him, for me the matter is closed. Add to that the fact that she hasn't gone to the police yet. If he was such a monster and she had such a strong case against him, why she hasn't gone to the police yet? if she's so p******ed off she should have gone to the police months ago, it didn't happen, I might be wrong but to m it says that she hasn't got a case
CH might become a side show, if the latest is reported correctly. Young Thai seems to behave rather differently from his father.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/265257/t ... -bull.html

Regarding report - I am in doubt that English business employment law reflects all nuances and values of the business owners. I think you would agree there is difference between totally innocent (not case here, emails exist), and not enough guiloty to get him dismissed without compensation. Austrians might have different set of values, and may not like to be pushed around by this individual.
a text message is not a crime in itself, it's the contents that could be a problem, and as I said the independent professional who looked into it found nothing problematic (let's be honest, the texts span a 3 years period, she was willingly chatting with him).

All this has one target: wear Horner out, cause him so much stress with his family that he gives up. I'm sorry to point that out but this course of action is wrong, both legally as well as morally
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Ruslan
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#377

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Ruslan wrote: 2 months ago Latest from the Independent: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... 9f6b&ei=15

It is kind of a positive article, saying everyone has talked and agreed to work together and Horner is going to stay and is supported by both the Austrians and Thais. Peace has been made with the Dutch camp.

We shall see.
Another article in a similar vein from PlanetF1: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motors ... 6bbc&ei=14

This article is even more adamant that Horner is staying. To quote: "Some inaccurate media reports suggested Horner would not make it to the Australian Grand Prix as team boss...Horner is in Australia carrying out his usual duties as team boss, and has the full backing of both sides of Red Bull's shareholding..."

and

"Another inaccurate rumour was that Red Bull's chief technical officer Adrian Neway was unhappy with the situation and was preparing to leave the team."

and

"Verstappen's manger Raymond Vermeulen is understood to have been told Red Bull will choose Horner over Verstappen."

and an interesting little statement:

"Planetf1/com also understands that a contract clause, inserted in to Verstappen's contract that allows him to leave if Marko's tenure ends, does exist, and was supposedly inserted without the knowledge of Horner or other senior members of the parent company..."
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#378

Post by Aty »

CH doesn't want Marko anywhere close to the team. That's impression one gets from reading about this case.

German media reported last year stories were leaked to media about Marko's alledged incompetence. All false, and made up to discredit old man.

CH began to interfered with areas which were traditionally managed by Marko. I am unable to recall exact circumstances, but rise of and recall back of DR was CH's call only, without consultation with Marko.

Lastly, last months CH was telling Marko that he will not allow him to travel with the team, if he was the one who leaked details of the investigation. (Marko was then called to meet his boss to talk about it.)

What, the emperor has spoken? Why are there all these distractions? If this is all the truth, and I don't know how to verify any of this, then I don't think it is Marko, who is causing trouble within.
P. Cornelius Scipio
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#379

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Aty wrote: 2 months ago

CH began to interfered with areas which were traditionally managed by Marko. I am unable to recall exact circumstances, but rise of and recall back of DR was CH's call only, without consultation with Marko.


I don't think that Horner, or anyone else within Red Bull Racing Ltd, could interfere with areas traditionally managed by Marko as Marko is neither employed by Red Bull Racing Ltd not he a consultant of that company so he has no power to manage anything at Red Bull Racing Lts. He is a consultant to Red Bull GmbH and he provides his services to Red Bull GmbH regarding the young driver program.

One thing that seems to be clear is that Horner pushed to have Ricciardo back in the Red Bull family and Marko wasn't happy about it, but I don't think that this is the cause of the rift
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#380

Post by Aty »

It was a mistake to hire lawyer, says this man...

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/265268/i ... -case.html
P. Cornelius Scipio
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#381

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Aty wrote: 2 months ago It was a mistake to hire lawyer, says this man...

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/265268/i ... -case.html
it often is, lawyers tend to be very litigious

Anyone who thinks about hiring a lawyer should read - carefully - Dickens' Bleak House (I'm serious)
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#382

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She has hired a PR firm.
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#383

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Latest rumour is much bigger. He alledgedly promissed to Thai owner to hire Albon, and make him WDC. This as payback for Thai making him CEO of Red Bull GmbH. He will fire all Austrians from the business, and hire his people instead. That's what I read today.

I am hoping someone would be able to explain to me how this works. The guy owns 49% of business, has two or three people working for him, and all of this means nothing for Thai owner? I rather suspect there could be massive lawsuit somewhere. I never heard of someone with big share of business what his father actually built, has no rights whatsoever, and all of that can be stolen from him. To put a cherry on the top, as far as I was able to find out, CH has zero experience to run corporation of RB size.

Mark Mateschitz
I don't believe in being both an employee and a shareholder in the same company. I will concentrate on my role as a shareholder, interpret it and contribute in a way that I consider sensible and necessary.
Dietrich Mateschitz cofounded Red Bull with Thai businessman Chaleo Yoovidhya (d. 2012); Yoovidhya's son Chalerm is a billionaire today.
(Mark is worth about €37B).

Strange story that is.
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#384

Post by Ruslan »

Yea, I ignored that report. It seemed a little out there.
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#385

Post by Aty »

I've found this on the internet, but unfortunately don't know whom to give credit. This is second day when some claims are being repeated. The article addresses latest rumor on potential changes in RB leadership. It is painful reading. Dietrich Mateschitz built almost whole business on his own, since his original partner left it upon him. Now, it is reported, apparently Mr. CH thinks he should be one to take it over. Why he would think that way is something I cannot speculate on. Many in media assuming Mark Mateschitz is a silent partners and has nothing to say about business (which until now was extremely profitable and growing, thanks mainly to Austrians). Of course I don't know about legal details of the partnership. Who will compensate Mark, if CH will destroy what his father built? This is only rhetorical question, since he will know what to do.

Hard to say what will happen. Lessons learned - you need to get horny to get promoted.
Horner affair: Will he now be head of the entire Red Bull Group?

Christian Horner's statements after the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix did little to keep Max Verstappen in the Red Bull team

(Motorsport-Total.com) - The fact that Max Verstappen took a clear public position in Saudi Arabia for the first time and expressed his loyalty to Helmut Marko did little to end speculation that he would leave Red Bull and go to Mercedes, for example could change. And: Current statements from team boss Christian Horner add fuel to the blazing fire ahead of the Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne.

"Never say never. If a driver doesn't want to stay, then he will go somewhere else," says Horner, among other things, and: "No individual is bigger than the team. You can't force someone to stay somewhere just because they have a contract . If someone doesn't want to be on this team anymore, we won't force them against their will."

According to the 50-year-old, this applies to everyone, "regardless of whether they are mechanical engineers, designers or unskilled workers. This applies to everyone in the company. Being part of a team means showing commitment and passion. Max has all of that, just like us "We've seen him. He's been with us since he was 18. And I have no doubts about his commitment and his passion."

Statements that are not well received by the Verstappen family, as research by Motorsport-Total.com has shown. In Saudi Arabia, Max Verstappen took a clear stance on the Horner affair for the first time and although he did not explicitly say so, he did subtly let it be known that he was not 100% behind Horner.

The three-time world champion and his father Jos reportedly find it a provocation that Horner has now given him the freedom to leave the team should he wish to do so. Especially since Red Bull has not changed the starting position internally: Horner will also be team boss of Red Bull Racing at the Australian Grand Prix.

The Yoovidhya clan remains fully behind Horner

After the Dubai meeting on March 10th , it briefly looked as if Chalerm Yoovidhya was reconsidering its support for Horner, but the Thai majority owners of the Red Bull Group now appear to have come to the conclusion in the announced review of their position: wanting to hold on to Horner.

An unsatisfactory situation for Verstappen - and one that increases the likelihood that he will leave Red Bull. Ralf Schumacher believes that the 26-year-old would "go through" with a change if things got tough: "I'm pretty sure of that. Not only because of Dr. Helmut Marko, but above all because of his father, who is involved in the issue also has a problem."

Schumacher explains in an interview on the Formula1.de YouTube channel that Horner has made "many enemies": "From what you hear in the paddock, with the success he has had in recent years, he has also had to assert his personality and his demands internally Power has changed. [...] Some people can't understand that."

But Horner is still firmly in the saddle. For now. Since Saudi Arabia, the employee who accused him of sexual harassment has not only appealed the results of the compliance investigation within Red Bull , but has also officially filed a complaint against Horner with the FIA, the world automobile association.

As long as these two pending proceedings have not produced a result, question marks remain. And a tense relationship not only between Horner and Verstappen, but also between Horner and Helmut Marko, the consultant commissioned by Red Bull GmbH for the group's entire motorsport program.

Horner downplays his role: “Helmut doesn’t work for me or for Red Bull Racing,” he says. "He works for Red Bull GmbH. [...] He is a consultant for Red Bull and the young driver program is under his control." Horner - consciously or unconsciously - leaves Marko's services to the Formula 1 team unmentioned.

The fact that Verstappen has committed himself to Marko leaves Horner cold: "We have a very good relationship with Max and always listen to what he has to say. But ultimately we have to make the right decision for the team. Regardless of whether it is "It's about a strategic issue or the future, the engine partner or a sponsor: we will always do what is right for the team."

Will Horner now head Mintzlaff & Co.?

And Horner seems to have a clear idea of ​​this: losing Verstappen and Marko because they put their personal interests above those of the team should be accepted if necessary. But it doesn't seem to be an option for him to resign himself. Quite the opposite: Horner is striving for even more power in the Red Bull Group - and could allegedly even become CEO of the entire company.

Research by Motorsport-Total.com has shown that the Yoovidhya clan can apparently imagine making Horner the head of the three current Red Bull CEOs Oliver Mintzlaff, Franz Watzlawick and Alexander Kirchmayr, as a "super CEO". Power would extend far beyond the boundaries of the Formula 1 team.

Background: Since the death of Dietrich Mateschitz in October 2022, the Yoovidhyas, who almost completely left the business to Mateschitz despite a 51 percent majority, have become more involved in the operational area. According to media reports, they are even considering giving up the current headquarters in Fuschl completely and running the company from Thailand.

This is not just about exercising control by the 51 percent majority, but also about potential tax savings. While it was always important to Mateschitz to tax the Red Bull Group's sales in his Austrian homeland, the Yoovidhyas now apparently see the possibility of implementing more cost-effective tax models outside of Austria.

The Verstappens can't possibly like that either. But Horner emphasizes that the relationship with his star driver is "absolutely fine. He works well with the team. There is no tension, no stress, and you can see how relaxed he is. That translates into his performance on the track . We don't see any problem with Max."

If Verstappen were to leave anyway, Horner wouldn't panic. He emphasizes: "The best drivers want to be in the best cars. [...] We have a phenomenal car, and we have a free cockpit for next year. And there are probably 16 drivers who would do anything in this car to sit."
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#386

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Ruslan wrote: 2 months ago Yea, I ignored that report. It seemed a little out there.
Well, it is on www.grandprix.com now, which is basically reposting the F1 news feed that a number of F1 news sites subscribe to: https://www.grandprix.com/news/horner-w ... k-ceo.html

The news feed tends to a be a little cautious, so maybe there is a basis for this.
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#387

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Ruslan wrote: 2 months ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 months ago Yea, I ignored that report. It seemed a little out there.
Well, it is on www.grandprix.com now, which is basically reposting the F1 news feed that a number of F1 news sites subscribe to: https://www.grandprix.com/news/horner-w ... k-ceo.html

The news feed tends to a be a little cautious, so maybe there is a basis for this.
I love this one:
And Horner seems to have a clear idea of ​​this: losing Verstappen and Marko because they put their personal interests above those of the team should be accepted if necessary.
What an irony to hear these words from this person.
Despite 'ceasefire', peace is far from a reality at Red Bull
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/265635/d ... -bull.html
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#388

Post by erwin greven »

The only thing i can say is that i totally ignore the media about this subject. They have one goal: sales, clicks, likes.
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#389

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erwin greven wrote: 2 months ago The only thing i can say is that i totally ignore the media about this subject. They have one goal: sales, clicks, likes.
If media sales are supported by clicks and likes, then it is reasonable to assume this applies to any subject, not just the one in this thread. We would not be able to read anything without being suspicious of its credibility (and we are). I do agree however that certain sources live on rumours more, than the others. FiA will not confirm what they are investigating, if anything. With that position again you need to relay on media, if you are interested in such subjects. Some sources are better at that than others. Application of critical thinking is essential. I am usually interested in all aspects of F1 and people associated with the series. A do read it all.
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#390

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erwin greven wrote: 2 months ago The only thing i can say is that i totally ignore the media about this subject. They have one goal: sales, clicks, likes.
I do, too, and have done so from the beginning of this saga because it was pretty clear to me what was happening. I only read the threads on a couple forums for entertainment - it's really funny to virtually see the foam at the mouths of some posters, and the stupidity displayed. On the other hand, it's a sobering experience to realize how many ordinary people are willing to play compliant henchmen for those who have an agenda in this. It's easy to see how political propaganda and conspiracy theories can have such resounding success these days.
Aty wrote: 2 months ago Application of critical thinking is essential.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry about that statement coming from you of all people.
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#391

Post by Aty »

Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
erwin greven wrote: 2 months ago The only thing i can say is that i totally ignore the media about this subject. They have one goal: sales, clicks, likes.
... it's a sobering experience to realize how many ordinary people are willing to play compliant henchmen for those who have an agenda in this.
What is the mysterious agenda you are reffering to? Two people from the same organisation have some personal issues to address. Outcome may affect team leadership, which is actually the principal and only a point of interest for rest of us. There is no need to talk about agendas, unless you know something more.
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