Horner under investigation

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P. Cornelius Scipio
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#361

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Bottom post of the previous page:

Star wrote: 2 months ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 months ago Well, turns out she has filed the complaint against Red Bull. According to the Telegraph, if the appeal fails then she still has the option to go to an employment tribunal. So this story is going to drag out for months: https://sports.yahoo.com/christian-horn ... 58353.html

On the other hand, according to BBC, the complainant has registered grievances with FIA. This kind of pushes its visibility up: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motors ... b62b&ei=16

According to BBC a complaint was made to the FIA ethics and compliance hotline on 2 February and a second complaint was made on March 6. FIA is not able to confirm receipt of the complaints (that is not in the above article).
But is it the woman in question who is still pushing this, or are others enouraging/urging, paying for her to do this?

We all know it's a power struggle and both sides seem to be really determined. It's seemingly not going to end until one side has won and the other is forced out. All we get to do is eat popcorn and watch as this plays out as it escalates.
well said. I could only add that on occasion it seems that the problem is not between the two shareholders but between Horner/the shareholders (the legal entity that exonerated Horner from any wrongdoing is Red Bull GmbH... it's the Austrian who said he did nothing wrong, it's not a minor detail, thay might have had their disagreements but it looks as if they want to solve this matter in a professional way, not out in public) and the Marko/Verstappen side, it seems as if Marko and Jos want to control the team, IMHO that is what is really at stake here
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#362

Post by Ruslan »

Star wrote: 2 months ago
Ruslan wrote: 2 months ago Well, turns out she has filed the complaint against Red Bull. According to the Telegraph, if the appeal fails then she still has the option to go to an employment tribunal. So this story is going to drag out for months: https://sports.yahoo.com/christian-horn ... 58353.html

On the other hand, according to BBC, the complainant has registered grievances with FIA. This kind of pushes its visibility up: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/motors ... b62b&ei=16

According to BBC a complaint was made to the FIA ethics and compliance hotline on 2 February and a second complaint was made on March 6. FIA is not able to confirm receipt of the complaints (that is not in the above article).
But is it the woman in question who is still pushing this, or are others enouraging/urging, paying for her to do this?

We all know it's a power struggle and both sides seem to be really determined. It's seemingly not going to end until one side has won and the other is forced out. All we get to do is eat popcorn and watch as this plays out as it escalates.
Hard to say actually. There are rumors that she is friends with Jos Verstappen, which might explain a lot of the leaks (with de Telegraaf). What we do know it that she has been in this industry for at least six years (she worked at Red Bull for four years), previously working with James Hinchcliffe. So she probably has her own network of friends and connections.

She originally filed this case in private through official channels. We do not know who made it public (Jos, Helmut, Fiona, or someone else). Obviously, if she initiated a complaint and it was rejected, she was going to appeal it. Kind of a given. And... if Red Bull rejected her complaint, she would appeal to other bodies. Also kind of a given.

The only thing that has really surprised me about the case was that anyone at Red Bull could imagine that they could "draw a line under it."
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#363

Post by Aty »

Image
Marko insist “calm must be restored”.
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#364

Post by Michael Ferner »

Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago This is getting out of hand.
How?
You cannot control perceptions. RB product, FiA, F1 and the team are all potentially in the line of fire, which might be rapidly getting out of control in public arena.
It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
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#365

Post by Aty »

Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago This is getting out of hand.
How?
You cannot control perceptions. RB product, FiA, F1 and the team are all potentially in the line of fire, which might be rapidly getting out of control in public arena.
It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
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#366

Post by Michael Ferner »

Aty wrote: 2 months agoPeople need to keep eyes on the ball.
No shit.
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#367

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

I see that, as reported here via the BBC etc, that the FIA, despite their relative silence and fence sitting attitude, they are now involved due to the fact that the complainant has taken her case to the FIA.

Dont expect any in depth comments from the FIA as yet though..... as one would expect any such grievances are (rather conveniently, said to be) dealt with by an autonomous and confidential area of the FIA removed from the day to day set up for such matters.

As such the FIA covered their butts in terms of requests for comments by simple words such as
".... complaints are received and managed by the Compliance Officer, and the Ethics Committee where appropriate,”

“Both bodies operate autonomously, guaranteeing strict confidentiality throughout the process.

“As a consequence, and in general, we are unable to confirm the receipt of any specific complaint and it is unlikely that we will be able to provide further comment.....
Arses covered with the autonomous and guaranteed confidentiality words. Legal ability to know / say nothing.

BUT.....(with only 1x T) :wink:

Having said that there are areas where the FIA could/would/should take an interest in the matter....... Horner is party to the International Sporting Code.

Article 12.2.1.c states: “Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.”

Another clause that could be applicable is Article 12.2.1.f, which covers “Any words, deeds or writings that have caused moral injury or loss to the FIA, its bodies, its members or its executive officers, and more generally on the interest of motor sport and on the values defended by the FIA”.


Those two paragraphs in bold alone suggest to me that the FIA will be looking closely into matters from their own perspective rather than the confidential third party grievance.

There is no doubt that this whole saga has been detrimental to F1 as a whole and by extension the FIA , both from a sporting aspect but also commercially. Sponsors and potential sponsors and partners, those with their own brand loyalties and ambitions and their need for distancing from the whole scandal, especially given the power of social media and those too politically correct ffor their own (and our) good. Sponsors and partners are looking to enhance their brands via such arrangements and not to get their brands integrity compromised by someone else's dirty laundry.

It is now far beyond simply a Red Bull internal issue and it is now impacting negatively on not only the sporting integrity but also the business of F1. I think we are all fully aware F1 is more business and money than sport nowadays.

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#368

Post by Aty »

GPToday:
Former Formula 1 team principal Guenther Steiner has suggested that a 'rethink' may be underway at Red Bull after recent events.
https://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view ... rner_saga/

Hmm, OK, and now what? Mess of this kind can only help rivals, but no one else.
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#369

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago This is getting out of hand.
How?
You cannot control perceptions. RB product, FiA, F1 and the team are all potentially in the line of fire, which might be rapidly getting out of control in public arena.
It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
sorry if repeat myself but it seems to me that the accuser is only trying to tarnish Horner's reputation (and Red Bull's) by dragging this saga along WITHOUT going to court. If she had any case any lawyer in the whole world would have strongly suggested that once the internal claim was dismissed she take Horner to court. Or in case that she was wrongly made redundant she take her former employer before an Employment Tribunal. Nothing of the sort has happened, the only thing that happened - after an independent KC decided that there was no substance to the accusation presented against Horner - is to try and keep this story in the news to tarnish him without running the risk of being sued for libel.

Also, and this might be a technicality and I apologise for being pedantic, should the accuser feel that she was a victim of Horner's she would pursue this as a criminal case, not as a civil case, therefore she would have to submit her case before the High Court not a "civil court": I often see this expression used by certain media but in England, where the case would be discussed, a "civil court" has no meaning in the law, it 's either a County Court or Magistrates' Court or for more complex cases the High Court (which decides both on civil as well as criminal cases).

I'm not trying to split the hair but just highlight that certain media are writing utter bs because if they had asked any English lawyer, be it a solicitor or a barrister, they would have got this right.

This is trial by public opinion
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#370

Post by Aty »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago This is getting out of hand.
How?
You cannot control perceptions. RB product, FiA, F1 and the team are all potentially in the line of fire, which might be rapidly getting out of control in public arena.
It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
This is trial by public opinion
I am not an expert on how mind of female species works, however if the lady wants revenge, than it is reasonable to presume, she has a reason for it. Let them to reveal all (I doubt they will), and we can make our minds if it was worth it. From legal point of view I need to relay on your expertise. I came out from automotive industry, and this kind of aberrant behaviour is new to me. She changed reportedly lawyer(s), so I am assuming she is acting under their supervision.
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#371

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago This is getting out of hand.
How?
You cannot control perceptions. RB product, FiA, F1 and the team are all potentially in the line of fire, which might be rapidly getting out of control in public arena.
It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
This is trial by public opinion
I am not an expert on how mind of female species works, however if the lady wants revenge, than it is reasonable to presume, she has a reason for it. Let them to reveal all (I doubt they will), and we can make our minds if it was worth it. From legal point of view I need to relay on your expertise. I came out from automotive industry, and this kind of aberrant behaviour is new to me. She changed reportedly lawyer(s), so I am assuming she is acting under their supervision.
I would be more inclined to believe that it's about how the minds of Messrs Helmut Marko and Jos Verstappen work.

I feel for that poor woman, to me it looks as if she lost a highly paid job (and risks ruining her reputation) for the little games of someone who took advantage of her
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#372

Post by Aty »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago

How?
You cannot control perceptions. RB product, FiA, F1 and the team are all potentially in the line of fire, which might be rapidly getting out of control in public arena.
It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
This is trial by public opinion
I am not an expert on how mind of female species works, however if the lady wants revenge, than it is reasonable to presume, she has a reason for it. Let them to reveal all (I doubt they will), and we can make our minds if it was worth it. From legal point of view I need to relay on your expertise. I came out from automotive industry, and this kind of aberrant behaviour is new to me. She changed reportedly lawyer(s), so I am assuming she is acting under their supervision.
I would be more inclined to believe that it's about how the minds of Messrs Helmut Marko and Jos Verstappen work.

I feel for that poor woman, to me it looks as if she lost a highly paid job (and risks ruining her reputation) for the little games of someone who took advantage of her
CH is repeatably denying charges raised against him. Aren't you intrigued what it is he didn't do, yet female involved is really p***** because of it? I've read that some of the emails weren't as innocent as claimed, so there is no point denying those, yet there has to be in addition something else. I tend to agree, the case would have to go to courts for us to find out what it is RBR hiding. There is also possibility that Thais might reach the point where he has to stop protecting CH, and protect business first.


Latest - alledgedly Thai side sent a relative to audit Austrians. Hard to tell how this ends, but it would support your point of view, that there is a friction, and Horner is in the middle of it.
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#373

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago

You cannot control perceptions. RB product, FiA, F1 and the team are all potentially in the line of fire, which might be rapidly getting out of control in public arena.
It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
This is trial by public opinion
I am not an expert on how mind of female species works, however if the lady wants revenge, than it is reasonable to presume, she has a reason for it. Let them to reveal all (I doubt they will), and we can make our minds if it was worth it. From legal point of view I need to relay on your expertise. I came out from automotive industry, and this kind of aberrant behaviour is new to me. She changed reportedly lawyer(s), so I am assuming she is acting under their supervision.
I would be more inclined to believe that it's about how the minds of Messrs Helmut Marko and Jos Verstappen work.

I feel for that poor woman, to me it looks as if she lost a highly paid job (and risks ruining her reputation) for the little games of someone who took advantage of her
CH is repeatably denying charges raised against him. Aren't you intrigued what it is he didn't do, yet female involved is really p***** because of it?
an independent KC looked into this and found nothing against him, for me the matter is closed. Add to that the fact that she hasn't gone to the police yet. If he was such a monster and she had such a strong case against him, why she hasn't gone to the police yet? if she's so p******ed off she should have gone to the police months ago, it didn't happen, I might be wrong but to m it says that she hasn't got a case
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#374

Post by Aty »

P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
Michael Ferner wrote: 2 months ago

It appears to me that the exact opposite is the case. This was a bit out of control for several connected parties; it's now going to die a slow death.
Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
This is trial by public opinion
I am not an expert on how mind of female species works, however if the lady wants revenge, than it is reasonable to presume, she has a reason for it. Let them to reveal all (I doubt they will), and we can make our minds if it was worth it. From legal point of view I need to relay on your expertise. I came out from automotive industry, and this kind of aberrant behaviour is new to me. She changed reportedly lawyer(s), so I am assuming she is acting under their supervision.
I would be more inclined to believe that it's about how the minds of Messrs Helmut Marko and Jos Verstappen work.

I feel for that poor woman, to me it looks as if she lost a highly paid job (and risks ruining her reputation) for the little games of someone who took advantage of her
CH is repeatably denying charges raised against him. Aren't you intrigued what it is he didn't do, yet female involved is really p***** because of it?
an independent KC looked into this and found nothing against him, for me the matter is closed. Add to that the fact that she hasn't gone to the police yet. If he was such a monster and she had such a strong case against him, why she hasn't gone to the police yet? if she's so p******ed off she should have gone to the police months ago, it didn't happen, I might be wrong but to m it says that she hasn't got a case
CH might become a side show, if the latest is reported correctly. Young Thai seems to behave rather differently from his father.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/265257/t ... -bull.html

Regarding report - I am in doubt that English business employment law reflects all nuances and values of the business owners. I think you would agree there is difference between totally innocent (not case here, emails exist), and not enough guiloty to get him dismissed without compensation. Austrians might have different set of values, and may not like to be pushed around by this individual.
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#375

Post by Ruslan »

Latest from the Independent: https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/other/ ... 9f6b&ei=15

It is kind of a positive article, saying everyone has talked and agreed to work together and Horner is going to stay and is supported by both the Austrians and Thais. Peace has been made with the Dutch camp.

We shall see.
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#376

Post by P. Cornelius Scipio »

Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago
P. Cornelius Scipio wrote: 2 months ago
Aty wrote: 2 months ago

Oh I am not so sure. The lady elected methodical approach (I am assuming on legal advice). First Salzburg, now FiA, and if things don't move, as a last step she might escalate her case to civil court. To stop her, there has to be is visible, satisfying settlement of some kind. So it seems to me. This might however take longer than upper up have patience. She wants her job back, said her friend. They might respond with finding something for her.

Dragging Marko as an evil man into this is nice distraction, but he is not the one who was playing hanky panky. People need to keep eyes on the ball.
This is trial by public opinion
I am not an expert on how mind of female species works, however if the lady wants revenge, than it is reasonable to presume, she has a reason for it. Let them to reveal all (I doubt they will), and we can make our minds if it was worth it. From legal point of view I need to relay on your expertise. I came out from automotive industry, and this kind of aberrant behaviour is new to me. She changed reportedly lawyer(s), so I am assuming she is acting under their supervision.
I would be more inclined to believe that it's about how the minds of Messrs Helmut Marko and Jos Verstappen work.

I feel for that poor woman, to me it looks as if she lost a highly paid job (and risks ruining her reputation) for the little games of someone who took advantage of her
CH is repeatably denying charges raised against him. Aren't you intrigued what it is he didn't do, yet female involved is really p***** because of it?
an independent KC looked into this and found nothing against him, for me the matter is closed. Add to that the fact that she hasn't gone to the police yet. If he was such a monster and she had such a strong case against him, why she hasn't gone to the police yet? if she's so p******ed off she should have gone to the police months ago, it didn't happen, I might be wrong but to m it says that she hasn't got a case
CH might become a side show, if the latest is reported correctly. Young Thai seems to behave rather differently from his father.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/265257/t ... -bull.html

Regarding report - I am in doubt that English business employment law reflects all nuances and values of the business owners. I think you would agree there is difference between totally innocent (not case here, emails exist), and not enough guiloty to get him dismissed without compensation. Austrians might have different set of values, and may not like to be pushed around by this individual.
a text message is not a crime in itself, it's the contents that could be a problem, and as I said the independent professional who looked into it found nothing problematic (let's be honest, the texts span a 3 years period, she was willingly chatting with him).

All this has one target: wear Horner out, cause him so much stress with his family that he gives up. I'm sorry to point that out but this course of action is wrong, both legally as well as morally
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