I think there's some grasping at straws going on here. It is fair to say that maybe Senna wasn't at his 1988 or 1990 peak, however he was still highly motivated and ferociously fast. Let's remember he only did one race in 1994 (Aida and Imola not included), so the judgement that he was past his peak is false as it's based on nothing.
At Brazil both Senna and Schumacher were in a class of their own. Both were over a second quicker than anyone else in qualifying and in the race were much the same before Senna's spin. Senna made the mistake late in the race because he was over-driving a tricky handling Williams in order to keep up with a questionably legal Benetton. He could have settled for second, but we know that's wasn't in his make-up.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 15:22 pm
by erwin greven
Senna past his best in 1994... While in 1993 he won 5 races in a, i hope you agree, not a very competitive car. What was Prost driving? The all conquering Williams FW15 which took 10 wins 15 poles and 10 fastest laps in 16 races.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 15:35 pm
by Michael Ferner
"He could have settled for second, but we know that's wasn't in his make-up."
Exactly. He was "win or crash", and in '94 that meant "crash" all the time. Hardly the way to win championships.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 15:36 pm
by kals
erwin greven wrote: ↑5 years ago
Senna past his best in 1994... While in 1993 he won 5 races in a, i hope you agree, not a very competitive car. What was Prost driving? The all conquering Williams FW15 which took 10 wins 15 poles and 10 fastest laps in 16 races.
Well said. The 1994 FW16 was an evolution of the 1993 FW15C however the chassis was created around active suspension and it wasn’t until the FW16B was introduced that Williams managed to get a handle on the aero imbalance that hampered the original spec chassis.
As for Ayrton throwing tantrums, yes he did. So did Prost. So did Mansell. Piquet was known to be a jokester and a bit of a prick. All were the top drivers who personality shortcomings made them fascinating to follow. But none of this has anything to do with Senna’s performance ability at the start of 1994.
And by the way, Schumacher was 30 points ahead of Senna after Imola. So it’s completely right that Senna would never have closed that gap in the championship
Michael Ferner wrote: ↑5 years ago
"He could have settled for second, but we know that's wasn't in his make-up."
Exactly. He was "win or crash", and in '94 that meant "crash" all the time. Hardly the way to win championships.
All the time?
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 15:45 pm
by erwin greven
Newey said that the FW16 had problems at the rear of the car. It was very unstable.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 15:55 pm
by Michael Ferner
erwin greven wrote: ↑5 years ago
Senna past his best in 1994... While in 1993 he won 5 races in a, i hope you agree, not a very competitive car. What was Prost driving? The all conquering Williams FW15 which took 10 wins 15 poles and 10 fastest laps in 16 races.
Not very competitive?? Even Andretti finished in the top three in it!
Senna fans are always so dismissive of the cars he drove, in '93 it was always "wait till he drives the Williams", and what happened? He didn't score a single point in it. But it's like arguing with conspiracy theorists, every logical argument you bring forward is set on its ears, and it's "Senna wins despite this or that", and everybody else only because they have a faster car ("all conquering", my ass). I'm sure Prost would've beaten Senna in '93 even if they had swopped cars. He was so much smarter, and the performance advantage of Williams wasn't very big.
Everso Biggyballies wrote: ↑5 years ago
That Senna outqualified Hill is no surprise.... Senna was the best qualifier by a quantum leap over anyone. Hill was behind Senna in 3rd when Senna made an error and spun. In the next race, Senna crashed out of the opening lap. At Imola, Hill was 4th, where he had started, but stuck in that position following a Safety Car from the first lap. He was still 4th the next lap when Senna crashed and the race stopped.
Bottom line is Senna did not keep it on the road in any race in 1994. Hill did, finishing Brazil in 2nd place, and having qualified in 3rd at the Pacific GP suffering a gearbox failure having climbed up to 2nd after a spin dropped him to 9th when trying to pass Hakkinen... Senna of course made a slight error again and crashed out on the opening lap.
Senna didn't make a mistake in Aida, unless you're counting his slight wheelspin off the line which allowed Schumacher to get ahead of him. Going into turn one he was hit up the rear by Hakkinen, spun and collected by Larini in the Ferrari. It was one of many first corner first lap incidents that Hakkinen suffered through 1994 that would eventually see him banned for the Hungarian GP. Additionally, Hill's 'spin' a few laps into the Pacific GP was also caused by Hakkinen.
Hakkinen caused Senna to spin in Aida? LOL!
The Brazilian was just on the brakes early. That being said, nor Senna, nor Hakkinen were at fault.
The first turn of the Aida Superspeedway was a weird one, in that you could take a lot of speed into it which would compromise you on exit, or you could go into it slightly slower to have a better exit. It seems that Hakkinen and Senna used the varying approaches resulting in Senna's off. It is still a bit unclear to me as to why Larini was suddenly there though, lol.
@Michael Ferner : as for the strategy: I am just curious to know if Senna was on a 2-stop and Schumacher on a 3-stop. The way in which Michael kept with Senna was remarkable.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 16:29 pm
by kals
Antonov wrote: ↑5 years agoHakkinen caused Senna to spin in Aida? LOL!
The Brazilian was just on the brakes early. That being said, nor Senna, nor Hakkinen were at fault.
The first turn of the Aida Superspeedway was a weird one, in that you could take a lot of speed into it which would compromise you on exit, or you could go into it slightly slower to have a better exit. It seems that Hakkinen and Senna used the varying approaches resulting in Senna's off. It is still a bit unclear to me as to why Larini was suddenly there though, lol.
Hakkinen's fault.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 17:03 pm
by Antonov
that doesn't say anything.
You say it's Hakkinen's fault. I have two pictures which say otherwise.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 17:05 pm
by kals
Antonov wrote: ↑5 years ago
that doesn't say anything.
You say it's Hakkinen's fault. I have two pictures which say otherwise.
Ok then, provide your facts and we'll talk.
Hakkinen's fault, 100%. End of story.
Re: Your favourite F1 season: the 90s
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 18:28 pm
by Everso Biggyballies
Hakkinen ran into the back of Senna. Senna had made an earlier error and it may have compromised his approach to the corner but at the end of the day Hakkinen ran into Senna. Senna did not reverse into Hakkinen. If a similar incident was to happen these days it would without doubt lead to a penalty to the person running into the back of the other.
Antonov wrote: ↑5 years ago
that doesn't say anything.
You say it's Hakkinen's fault. I have two pictures which say otherwise.
Ok then, provide your facts and we'll talk.
Hakkinen's fault, 100%. End of story.
Actually no. Senna put himself in trouble by trying to go inside of Schumacher at T1 at the very last moment, trying to regain the position he had lost to the German at the start.
But Schumacher firmly closes the door/there is no realistic space. Senna, not being on the racing line, has to brake, which leaves him much slower than the upcoming pack, led by Mika (who is on the racing line), and which leaves the Finn to nudge Senna from behind into a spin.
More Senna's overambition (or desperation as @Michael Ferner calls it) than Hakkinen's fault.
Michael Ferner wrote: ↑5 years ago
Not very competitive?? Even Andretti finished in the top three in it!
And how many times? On what track? Yes, that same track on which Jos Verstappen took 4th in the awesome Arrows...
1993 Italian GP
26 starters, 10 finishers
Prost and Schumacher's engines expired, Senna crashed out with Brundle (his only self-induced retirement of 1993)
Hardly an ideal 'fact' to try and prove the point about Senna and McLaren in 1993
