Your favourite F1 season: the 90s

[kals]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Not very competitive?? Even Andretti finished in the top three in it!

And how many times? On what track? Yes, that same track on which Jos Verstappen took 4th in the awesome Arrows...

1993 Italian GP
26 starters, 10 finishers
Prost and Schumacher's engines expired, Senna crashed out with Brundle (his only self-induced retirement of 1993)

Hardly an ideal 'fact' to try and prove the point about Senna and McLaren in 1993

[kals]

that doesn't say anything.

You say it's Hakkinen's fault. I have two pictures which say otherwise.

Ok then, provide your facts and we'll talk.

Hakkinen's fault, 100%. End of story.

Actually no. Senna put himself in trouble by trying to go inside of Schumacher at the very last moment. But Schumacher firmly closes the door/there is no realistic space, so Senna has to brake, which leaves him much slower than the upcoming pack, and which leaves Mika to nudge Senna from behind into a spin. More Senna's overambition than Hakkinen's fault.

I'd like the view of @PTRACER on this.

Please stop this now. It's not funny anymore.

[Cheeveer]

Michael Andretti, Worst Driver Ever™

[Antonov]

I wonder, had Andretti joined F1 a year later, after the ban on all the technology, if his obvious talent would have shone through better.

[erwin greven]

I wonder, had Andretti joined F1 a year later, after the ban on all the technology, if his obvious talent would have shone through better.

Please stop this now. It's not funny anymore.

[Antonov]

Nobody with a liking for 1999? It had some classic races.

[Michael Ferner]

I didn't try to prove a point. Senna winning five races with the MP4-8 is proof enough that the car was very competitive. The Andretti reference was just to show how utterly ridiculous your statement was.

[Antonov]

I didn't try to prove a point. Senna winning five races with the MP4-8 is proof enough that the car was very competitive. The Andretti reference was just to show how utterly ridiculous your statement was.

I think it would be true to say the MP4/8 didn't turn out to be the 'dog' that Senna had feared.
The chasis was very gentle, it had the steering wheel with gear levers,the engine was solid*, and it was an aesthetically pleasing car.

But only a driver as Senna was able to wring out the exceptional results of that car he did.
Mind you, Mika was also very quick and gave Ayrton a reality check, but I don't think the Finn's speed or agressiveness was ever in doubt.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that, if you would have put Prost and Senna in the 1993 McLaren, the Brazilian would have had the upper hand.

* were the Benetton and McLaren engines on par?

[erwin greven]

The McLaren MP4-8 had an 680hp engine till the British GP. Then they also got the same engine Benetton had. I thought it had some 20-25hp extra. Williams had a 750hp Renault engine. And as far as i can remember was the Ferrari engine not that far off.

[Antonov]

thanks Erwin. McLaren really came good at the end of the season even though by your estimates they were at least 5% less powerful than the Williamses. I think Senna must have had very mixed feelings switching teams come the end of the season.

[kals]

Benetton had works engines from Ford. McLaren had customer spec. Benetton were prioritised with all upgrades as the season went on.

[Antonov]

I wonder if McLaren would have performed (even) better in 1993 (and beyond) had it had Lamborghini engines.

[erwin greven]

The Lamborghini engines were more powerful, but less reliable.

MP4/8B

During 1993 the McLaren team built a modified version of the MP4/8, dubbed the MP4/8B, to be used as a test car for the Lamborghini V12 engine that had been in Formula One since 1989. After a handshake deal between Ron Dennis and Bob Lutz of Chrysler (who at the time owned Lamborghini) at a motor show in Munich, the modified car carried the 710 bhp (529 kW; 720 PS) V12 engine (dubbed the Lamborghini 3512) that was also supplied at the time to the Larrousse team and had previously been used by both Lotus and Ligier with little success. Lutz explained that after four years in Formula One, Chrysler wanted to test whether the V12 had the potential to be a winner in F1. After running with lower ranked teams since its introduction to F1 in 1989 (which by Lamborghini's own admission was because they did not feel the new engine could do justice to one of the leading teams), it was decided that a top team was needed to test that potential and a set of V12 engines were supplied to McLaren for testing.

Ayrton Senna and Mika Häkkinen tested the car at both Silverstone and Estoril, with the first test taking place at Silverstone on 20 September. The modified MP4/8B, painted white with no sponsorship logos other than Goodyear, took three months to re-engineer and stretch in order to fit the longer and heavier engine (the V12 was badged as Chrysler for the McLaren tests). After first driving the car Senna suggested to the engine's designer, former long-time Ferrari engineer Mauro Forghieri, that it would be better with a less brutal top end and a much fatter mid-range. Forghieri, who had enormous respect for the triple World Champion and valued his opinion, made the requested changes. While the engine lost 25 bhp (19 kW; 25 PS) at the top end, the test engines gained some 40 bhp (30 kW; 41 PS) over the 1993 Lamborghini race engine, giving the V12 approximately 750 bhp (559 kW; 760 PS), around 70 bhp (52 kW; 71 PS) more than the customer Ford V8 engines and almost on par with the most powerful engine of 1993, Renault's V10. This also gave the Lamborghini engine around 10 bhp (7 kW; 10 PS) more than the V12 used by Ferrari, the only other V12 in Formula One at the time. The resulting changes to the V12 reportedly made the MP4/8B more drivable and much faster than before, even faster than the race version. According to reports at the time, the combination of the MP4/8B and the Lamborghini V12 actually proved more stable and easier on tyres than the Ford powered MP4/8 race cars.

Both Senna and Häkkinen were reportedly very impressed with the car/engine combination, despite the 3512's poor reliability record since its Formula One debut and its poor reliability during the tests (the engine's best result to that point was a lucky 3rd place at the infamous 1990 Japanese Grand Prix, which would ultimately prove to be its best ever result). Häkkinen claimed that during the Silverstone test, one of the engines blew up as he was racing down the Hanger Straight. He claimed that right up to the point of detonation the engine was pushing out more and more power and actually felt much faster than the Ford. He also told that the blow up was very big with bits of the engine actually flying past his helmet. Senna later fueled rumours that the car would be raced during the 1993 season when he reportedly said during testing "It would be very interesting to race the Lamborghini in Japan". His belief was that regardless of reliability, the McLaren-Lamborghini would at least be as fast as both the Williams-Renaults and Benetton-Fords who he was struggling to keep up with in races using the customer spec Ford V8 (Senna won in Japan using the Ford V8 and backed that up with his last ever win in Australia). Senna even allegedly rang Ron Dennis from the pits during the Estoril test (according to reports Dennis took the call in his private limo as he was in England at the time) and told him that he felt that they should seriously think about using the V12 instead of the V8.

The potential for the car and engine was there for all to see. According to former McLaren and now Pratt & Miller engineer Ian Wright in 2015, "When the Lamborghini engine was bolted onto the MP4/8 it did not go any quicker, so some downforce was added to enable the extra power to be used. Had the MP4/8 had the Lamborghini engine on the back instead of the Ford it would have had the pace to win the '93 championship comfortably."

[Antonov]

thank you for sharing that article, @erwin greven - that was a good read.

Was it the intention to perhaps have Lambo engines for McLaren in 94?

[Michkov]

...and it was an aesthetically pleasing car.

I fail to understand how this feat should make any car faster.



With regards to the engine, while Mclaren ran customer engines, they were free to tinker with them. Something that upset the factory teams since they had to stick with Fords spec ECU and components.

[Michkov]

Speaking of the MP4/8B, it currently resides in the Lamborghini museum.