Championships won in an inferior car

[Antonov]

Going back from memory here for F1

[F1]
2008: Hamilton
2007: Raikkonen
2000: Schumacher
1995: Schumacher
1991: Senna (sort of... discussable I guess because he had a very strong first half and then some luck towards the end)
1986: Prost
1985: Prost
1983: Piquet
1982: Rosberg
1979: Scheckter (Ligier and Williams were better imo)

[Cheeveer]

Going back from memory here for F1

[F1]
2008: Hamilton
2007: Raikkonen
2000: Schumacher
1995: Schumacher
1991: Senna (sort of... discussable I guess because he had a very strong first half and then some luck towards the end)
1986: Prost
1984: Lauda
1983: Piquet
1982: Rosberg
1979: Scheckter (Ligier and Williams were better imo)

What the how

[Everso Biggyballies]

Going back from memory here for F1

[F1]
1979: Scheckter (Ligier and Williams were better imo)

Well, the Ferrari was good enough to finish 1 & 2 in the 1979 WDC, and win the WCC at a canter in the end.... the points gap to Williams was certainly a healthy one. From memory the Williams did not win a single race until Silverstone. Williams won 5 races, 4 with Jones, whereas both Gilles and Jody won 3 each. Ferrari scored more podiums than anyone else... (13, to Williams 10)

Between the two Ferraris only had 5 mechanical DNFs, as opposed to Williams 8.

In laps led over the 1979 season, Ferrari led most with 478 laps in the lead for the year. Next up was Williams on 246 and Ligier just 208 laps led. In Klms again Ferrari led almost 2000 laps (1985) Williams led some 700 less, about 1200, with Ligier just over 1000.

Interestingly, with the Ferrari 1979 stats, Gilles led for 308 laps that year, against Scheckter's 170 laps, ironically less than 3rd position in the World Title, Alan Jones (Williams 208)

I would have to say that on the contrary the Ferrari seemed to be the better car in general throughout the season, although the Ligier had a good start and Williams a good finish to the season. I daresay Williams was the better car by year end, but overall, I dont think so. Ferrari were strong all year.

[Antonov]

1984: Lauda

What the how

I meant Prost in 1985 actually. Probably my mind is contaminated after reading Niki's autobiography

[Cheeveer]

That doesn't sound right either. Ferrari had a good car, but not better than McLaren.

[Antonov]

the 85 was quite a 'bitch' for the slower turns. I reckon the Ferrari was the slightly better car. And Williams certainly towards the end.

[DoubleFault]

The 1995 Benetton was inferior to the Williams?

Schumacher was more dominant than Hill, but when those 2 were out of the equation, what car was in 3rd to pick up the win? Johnny Herbert in the Benetton - Silverstone and Monza

[Antonov]

I don't agree on that one. DC made some silly mistakes in those races. True, they had the same engine, but Benetton had the inferior package. Berger tested Schumacher's car at the end of the 95 season and said he couldn't understand how Schu won a race in it, let alone a championship.

[kals]

My comments included

Going back from memory here for F1

[F1]
2008: Hamilton - pretty much the top car most of the year
2007: Raikkonen - was the pace setter, even their competition needed to copy them to beat them
2000: Schumacher - just plain wrong
1995: Schumacher - Williams was a great car but Benetton was superior
1991: Senna (sort of... discussable I guess because he had a very strong first half and then some luck towards the end) - no, just no
1986: Prost
1985: Prost - what the hell? Are you serious?
1983: Piquet - Brabham and Renault were on par through out the season
1982: Rosberg
1979: Scheckter (Ligier and Williams were better imo) - absolutely not

[Antonov]

being a bit more constructive instead of just saying 'no' would be interesting.

[kals]

I will but I wrote my comments very quickly yesterday. What would be interesting is to know why you feel these years and cars were inferior. At the moment there is no context to your reason for selecting these cars and years. Once you've done this then I'll leave my commentary.

[Antonov]

okay, as to the ones you dispute

2008: very close call between the pace of the McLaren and the Ferrari. But given that I rate Hamilton much higher than Massa and given the often poor performances by Kovalainen I think the McLaren was slower.
2007: I reckon Kimi won the championship in a car not set up to his liking. The 2007 McLaren was a very handy little car and I believe the best of the field, certainly on the tracks favouring short wheel base.
2000: Ferrari was more reliable if you imply that. But the McLaren was faster as qualifying often proved. All in all very close, maybe too close to call... as Suzuka 2000 proved.
1995: hmm... I'm still not convinced. But certainly more of a match (in fair terms) to the Williams than in 1994.
1991: Williams gradually became faster but the truth is McLaren was stronger on a crucial point: reliability.
1985: Bad on slow circuits. Ferrari looked very good all round, I think had you put either Lauda or Prost in a Ferrari they would have won it.
1983: Brabham was massively unreliable though. In that sense the Renault was the superior car -until Kyalami came...
1979: towards the end Williams dominated. But Ferrari was strong all year, so I guess you are right on that one.

[kals]

Here you go then:

2008: McLaren and Ferrari were close but when McLaren won they were in a class of their own. Ferrari was on the back foot the majority of the time and in reality Ferrari only truly had the better car in a few races. Sepang, Magny-Cours and Spa.
2007: The Ferrari was the class of the field, as was expected at the time. Kimi should have walked that championship but made it very hard for himself.
2000: Being fastest in qualifying doesn't mean the opposition's car is inferior. The Ferrari was largely dominant but only for a few mishaps and superb performances by Mika during the season.
1995: So you trust the words of Berger? A driver close to the end of his career who didn't fulfil his potential. That's funny. The Williams was a great car but the drivers weren't good enough that year. The Benetton, once initial issues were ironed out in Barcelona, was utterly invicible.
1991: So a car that won 5 races in a row at the start of the season, whilst battling crippling realiability issues was inferior? Once Williams had started beating McLaren (Canada through to Hockenheim), Honda built a brand new engine which then allowed Senna to once more re-establish his dominance (from Hungary). From that point on both cars were faster from one race to another but the McLaren was still superior and Senna only needed to protect his handsome lead.
1985: Ferrari were incredibly unreliable but only faster than McLaren on a handful of occasions.
1983: Both were neck and neck throughout the season, it was a great and even championship
1979: Ligier started out on top but couldn't maintain their performance. Ferrari were always either winning or there and there abouts. Williams started winning too late.

[Antonov]

[Everso Biggyballies]

Here you go then:

1985: Ferrari were incredibly unreliable, almost as unreliable as the out of favour reigning champion's (Lauda) McLaren but only faster than Prost's McLaren on a handful of occasions.

Fixed.

2007: The Ferrari was the class of the field, as was expected at the time. Kimi should have walked that championship but made it very hard for himself.

I dont agree with a couple of points....

As for 2007 despite the blatant lies of McLaren, and their attempts to win 'by any means', the McLaren was the faster and better car that year. The Ferrari was faster than the McLaren at Australia, but thanks to their 'in house research' (aka Ferrari drawings) they were able to have the Ferrari 'secret' exposed and corrected before the second race, affecting the car, and Ferrari only managed to get their car resorted towards mid season (France) At Monaco the McLaren was very much the faster car (ahead of 3rd by over a minute with everyoine else lapped by both). Canada, McLaren certainly the faster car, as in the US.

France and McLaren were fast, but Ferrari were a close match... a botched start for Hamilton fucked up his 3 stop strategy and allowed both Ferraris to lead him. Alonso had qualifying problems. Raikkonen won because he handled te traffic better than anyone else. In Britain the cars were even, with Hamilton on pole. He led Raikkonen to the first pitstop but made an error, almost leaving the pits before being released. It cost him two places, the lead now with Alonso from Raikkonen and a now 3rd Lewis. Hungary and the Mclarens had good qualy speed, but shot themselves in the foot with their internal bitchin which promoted Lewis to pole and Alonso backwards. Lewis takes the lead from pole and wins, No one can pass at this track in the dry. Turkey and the cars were even..... both McLarens made bad starts and Hamilton overheated his tyres, got a puncture and finished mid points.

Monza and the McLaren was clearly the better and faster car, giving them an Alonso led 1-2. Spa the two teams were evenly matched, but Raikkonen was the best driver on the day, aided by McLaren infighting and getting in each others way at the start. With McLaren out of the team championship their two drivers were well clear (almost two races clear after Monza) of the Ferrari drivers in the WDC, and had nothing but personal gain to drive for, and Alonso was not shy about pushing Lewis wide or blocking at Spa. .

The Ferrari was more unreliable... McLaren had zero DNFs from a mechanical failure in either car all year. Raikkonen went out of the Spanish race with an electrical failure, and the Europe GP it was a drybollocks (aka hydraulics) problem. Massa had a suspension failure at Monza.

Japan was the controversial wet race..... Ferrari blew this one with penalties for not fitting full wets, and when the SC pulled in after leading the start until lap 18 the McLarens were 1-2, with the Ferraris both at the other end of the field thanks to their start chaos. Alonso crashed out, Hamilton hung on to win the race, and Raikkonen drove through from the rear to finish 3rd.

Two races to go, 20 points on the table, and Hamilton was 12 points clear of Alonso and 17 ahead of Kimi. In China, again the cars were evenly matched, and Hamilton lead away from pole and opened a gap in the damp. McLaren procrastinated over calling Lewis in for tyres, with more rain forecast they tried to save a pitstop. From the race lead Lewis put his McLaren into the smallest gravel trap in the world, and got stuck to record a DNF, and Raikkonen took over the lead to win from Alonso. They headed into the last race with Lewis having thrown away his advantage, now down to +4 on Alonso and +7 on Raikkonen.

In Brazil both teams had equal pace, with Ferrari perhaps the edge on race pace, with McLaren faster over one lap. Hamilton started 2nd , with Raikkonen 3rd and Massa on pole. Hamilton made a dreadful start, passed by Alonso and Kimi into T1, and then trying to regain places at T3 Lewis went off and dropped to 8th by the end of the lap, with the Ferraris running 1-2. By lap 8 Hamilton was on the verge of the top 6 with Raikkonen and Alonso 2nd and 3rd. A temporary Gearbox glitch dropped Lewis to 18th place and for once looking grim for the title, at the time the title looking like Alonso's. However Raikkonen and Massa managed to come out of the pits with Kimi in front after the second stops, from Felipe. A position to win the title from, as long as Hamilton could not get back up to 5th.
He couldnt.

Raikkonen won by a point. He probably made fewer mistakes in the course of the year than Hamilton (a rookie) did. He did not as Kals implied, do his best to not win it. That honour goes without doubt to both Alonso and Hamilton, backed by McLaren. Alonso for being a twat, Hamilton for making the sort of mistakes a rookie will make, and the team helping him at Shanghai, and the team by allowing all the internal politics that happened, and failure to formally back one driver for the title. McLaren as a team made Ferraris job a little easier.

The difference at the end of the year was the drivers, and mainly down to Lewis' lack of experience which shone through particularly at the end of the year.