Road to Indy feeder series discussion

Including the Indy 500 and all junior series leading up to IndyCar
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#181

Post by PTRACER »

Bottom post of the previous page:

MonteCristo wrote: 1 month ago
PTRACER wrote: 1 month ago
MonteCristo wrote: 1 month ago 19 confirmed for Indy Lights now. Still apparently a couple of empty seats.

USF Pro 2000 now at 9. Still dire. Anything less than a dozen feels absolutely anaemic. USF 2000 at 7 now. Again, if they combined it, that would make sense. A 16 car grid would be decent.

https://formulascout.com/category/road-to-indy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Indy_NXT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_USF_ ... ampionship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_USF2000_Championship
That's the sign of a dead championship. Why have numbers fallen so low? Not cost effective? Not a good road to Indy after all?
Maybe partially. I don't think the winners' purse is amazing.

But the biggest problem I'm led to believe is dilution.

You have the road to Indy ladder with the aforementioned USF series. But then you have American F4 and Formula Regional Americas (and I think they have a couple of versions, too, but could be wrong).

They're all vying in that first/1.5/second winged openwheel category space. And it's just leading to thinned out grids. There's just not that much interest to support it all.
Not the first time this has happened. I think UK motorsports went through a similar thing back in the mid-2000s, where we had FFord, FRenault, F3, then also FBMW, FPA, etc. The weaker series inevitably collapsed.

++ Just putting two and three together here:

USF2000: "In conversations with one of the mid-to-front pack teams, I was told that they were spending around $250,000 annually and contending for championships. But even this was considered a bit of a lower budget for this series."
https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/commen ... r_usf2000/

USF4: "The total cost for a driver to compete in a full season of the 2016 championship is estimated at $115,000."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_4 ... ampionship

Both are a lot of money, but...
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#182

Post by MonteCristo »

PTRACER wrote: 1 month ago
MonteCristo wrote: 1 month ago
PTRACER wrote: 1 month ago
MonteCristo wrote: 1 month ago 19 confirmed for Indy Lights now. Still apparently a couple of empty seats.

USF Pro 2000 now at 9. Still dire. Anything less than a dozen feels absolutely anaemic. USF 2000 at 7 now. Again, if they combined it, that would make sense. A 16 car grid would be decent.

https://formulascout.com/category/road-to-indy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Indy_NXT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_USF_ ... ampionship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_USF2000_Championship
That's the sign of a dead championship. Why have numbers fallen so low? Not cost effective? Not a good road to Indy after all?
Maybe partially. I don't think the winners' purse is amazing.

But the biggest problem I'm led to believe is dilution.

You have the road to Indy ladder with the aforementioned USF series. But then you have American F4 and Formula Regional Americas (and I think they have a couple of versions, too, but could be wrong).

They're all vying in that first/1.5/second winged openwheel category space. And it's just leading to thinned out grids. There's just not that much interest to support it all.
Not the first time this has happened. I think UK motorsports went through a similar thing back in the mid-2000s, where we had FFord, FRenault, F3, then also FBMW, FPA, etc. The weaker series inevitably collapsed.

++ Just putting two and three together here:

USF2000: "In conversations with one of the mid-to-front pack teams, I was told that they were spending around $250,000 annually and contending for championships. But even this was considered a bit of a lower budget for this series."
https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/commen ... r_usf2000/

USF4: "The total cost for a driver to compete in a full season of the 2016 championship is estimated at $115,000."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_4 ... ampionship

Both are a lot of money, but...
At least if you're in the Indy feeder series, you have a path for open wheel progression in America. So you'd imagine there would be ongoing interest there. But that's a big saving in F4.

I remember when the Champ Car Atlantics series started with an ultra cheap car, they had grids upwards of 30 cars!
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#183

Post by PTRACER »

MonteCristo wrote: 1 month agoAt least if you're in the Indy feeder series, you have a path for open wheel progression in America. So you'd imagine there would be ongoing interest there. But that's a big saving in F4.

I remember when the Champ Car Atlantics series started with an ultra cheap car, they had grids upwards of 30 cars!
The problem is that if only 7 drivers are in it, I don't think most people will bother watching. I opened up the USF2000 standings from 2017 and found 36 drivers with points. Much more impressive to be at the top of those standings (FYI it was Oliver Askew at #1 and Rinus VK at #2. And only one of those drivers is still racing :whistling: )

I remember those as well. Seems like it is still going? I thought it was a defunct series.
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#184

Post by MonteCristo »

PTRACER wrote: 1 month ago
MonteCristo wrote: 1 month agoAt least if you're in the Indy feeder series, you have a path for open wheel progression in America. So you'd imagine there would be ongoing interest there. But that's a big saving in F4.

I remember when the Champ Car Atlantics series started with an ultra cheap car, they had grids upwards of 30 cars!
The problem is that if only 7 drivers are in it, I don't think most people will bother watching. I opened up the USF2000 standings from 2017 and found 36 drivers with points. Much more impressive to be at the top of those standings (FYI it was Oliver Askew at #1 and Rinus VK at #2. And only one of those drivers is still racing :whistling: )

I remember those as well. Seems like it is still going? I thought it was a defunct series.
Certainly agree.

Pretty sure the Atlantics that are still around are based off the older spec cars, and are just regional SCCA categories now, not a "national" series like the others. If I were to wager a guess, I reckon a lot of the drivers would be of the 'gentleman driver' ilk.
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#185

Post by PTRACER »

MonteCristo wrote: 1 month ago
PTRACER wrote: 1 month ago
MonteCristo wrote: 1 month agoAt least if you're in the Indy feeder series, you have a path for open wheel progression in America. So you'd imagine there would be ongoing interest there. But that's a big saving in F4.

I remember when the Champ Car Atlantics series started with an ultra cheap car, they had grids upwards of 30 cars!
The problem is that if only 7 drivers are in it, I don't think most people will bother watching. I opened up the USF2000 standings from 2017 and found 36 drivers with points. Much more impressive to be at the top of those standings (FYI it was Oliver Askew at #1 and Rinus VK at #2. And only one of those drivers is still racing :whistling: )

I remember those as well. Seems like it is still going? I thought it was a defunct series.
Certainly agree.

Pretty sure the Atlantics that are still around are based off the older spec cars, and are just regional SCCA categories now, not a "national" series like the others. If I were to wager a guess, I reckon a lot of the drivers would be of the 'gentleman driver' ilk.
Perhaps a very affordable way of going racing then. I'd be interested to know the prices.
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#186

Post by MonteCristo »

Quite likely a good reason for the healthy (still 19-car) Indy Lights grid is the TV package:
FOX Sports and IndyCar have revealed the television schedule for the 2025 Indy NXT by Firestone season. As part of the new media rights deal between FOX Sports and INDYCAR announced in June, the entire Indy NXT season will be available live on television for the first time. Twelve races will appear live on FOX Sports’ FS1 with two airing on FS2.

Additionally, all practice and qualifying sessions for the NTT IndyCar Series’ developmental series will air on a combination of FS1 and FS2. All IndyCar programming also streams live on the FOX Sports app.
https://racer.com/2024/12/19/fox-sports ... -schedule/

Certainly easier for sponsors to justify funding if they can point to something like this as providing exposure to their brand.

Pro 2000 still sitting at 9 full time cars as well, and USF2000 at 8 - one extra. And @Everso Biggyballies, the USF2000 grid includes Melbournian Brad Majman. Hard to get info on him. But seems he's 15-16 years old. Won some stuff in last year's US F4 series - 5th in standings.

As an aside, Australian Daniel Quimby won the F4 title. Australian Nicolas Stati finished 2nd! But in relation to that earlier discussion with @PTRACEER about car counts, the 2024 US F4 series only had 6 full time cars, with a total of 6-8 cars across the year. Classic example of dilution.
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#187

Post by MonteCristo »

USF2000 now 10 cars. Not diabolically bad. Also far from good.

2025 USF Pro 2000 still 9.

NXT still 19. But Wikipedia says 2 cars are still TBC. So we'll see.
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#188

Post by Cheeveer »

19-21 is very good. Intriguing field also with Hauger, Flörsch, Deegan, Pierson, Collet, could be a lot of fun.
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#189

Post by MonteCristo »

Cheeveer wrote: 3 weeks ago 19-21 is very good. Intriguing field also with Hauger, Flörsch, Deegan, Pierson, Collet, could be a lot of fun.
I'd expect the Euro-based drivers to somewhat struggle for the first round. They'd be used to billiard-table surfaces - St Pete is not that. (Plus a new car, environment.)

After that though, I'd be very disappointed if Hauger wasn't in the top 2.
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#190

Post by MonteCristo »

MonteCristo wrote: 3 weeks ago NXT still 19. But Wikipedia says 2 cars are still TBC. So we'll see.
20! :shocked:
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#191

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I take it that USF Pro 2000 and USF 2000 are the respective follow-ups of what was called Formulae Atlantic and Ford 2000 while I still followed the sport. Both series had no problem attracting 40-plus grids even in the nineties, and even had regional split-offs on occasion. Goes to show that overall health of the motorsport ladder isn't in good order, over in the US? Can't say that Formulae Two and Three over here look very attractive, but at least they have full fields, I think.


EDIT: A bit of googling shows that USF Pro 2000 is the descendant of Star Mazda! That was always a pretty obscure series back in my days! Apparently, Atlantics died with the CART series in the noughts.
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#192

Post by MonteCristo »

Michael Ferner wrote: 3 weeks ago I take it that USF Pro 2000 and USF 2000 are the respective follow-ups of what was called Formulae Atlantic and Ford 2000 while I still followed the sport. Both series had no problem attracting 40-plus grids even in the nineties, and even had regional split-offs on occasion. Goes to show that overall health of the motorsport ladder isn't in good order, over in the US? Can't say that Formulae Two and Three over here look very attractive, but at least they have full fields, I think.


EDIT: A bit of googling shows that USF Pro 2000 is the descendant of Star Mazda! That was always a pretty obscure series back in my days! Apparently, Atlantics died with the CART series in the noughts.
Still reeling from the split (FTG) and the politics of the series.

Formula Regional is booming across Europe at the moment.
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#193

Post by MonteCristo »

Michael Ferner wrote: 3 weeks ago Can't say that Formulae Two and Three over here look very attractive, but at least they have full fields, I think.
The FIA/F1-support F2 and F3 categories basically killed F3 across the world, though, because they're the only series that use the car and took the naming rights IIRC. So basically Formula Regional took the place of what used to be F3 (albeit with slower cars), as well as F4.

It's a mess.

But they get good grids because it's on the F1 support ticket and they get a good TV deal.
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#194

Post by Michael Ferner »

Yeah, but they can't promote stand-alone events, can they? I remember the days when Formula 2 at Hockenheim attracted six-figure crowds, those days are gone forever it seems :rip:
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#195

Post by MonteCristo »

Michael Ferner wrote: 2 weeks ago Yeah, but they can't promote stand-alone events, can they? I remember the days when Formula 2 at Hockenheim attracted six-figure crowds, those days are gone forever it seems :rip:
They can't even share the chassis so other (no doubt affiliated) F2/F3 series can use the same cars.

Stupidity.
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#196

Post by MonteCristo »

A bit of movement, thankfully.

NXT is 20.5 with a part program added for American Max Taylor.

USF Pro 2000 is up to 11 cars.

USF2000 is at 14. Which in my mind is up to "not terrible" territory.

Meanwhile, the bottom rung of the 'Road to Indy' feeder series, USF Juniors, is up to 19 cars. Decent.

You'd think most of them would add an extra one or two in the next month before St Pete...
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