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Everso Biggyballies
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#166

Post by Everso Biggyballies »

Bottom post of the previous page:

PTRACER wrote: 4 months ago I've paid so little attention to F1 this year I don't know what's even happening.

I just read Alfa Romeo is parting ways with Sauber. Can someone summarise very briefly what's happening and when?
I did an update about Alfa branding in F1 a couple of days ago here viewtopic.php?t=15870&start=1350#p457588

Probably would have made more sense to put it in this thread. In fact I willt copy it into here. see below :wink:

As to what is happening to Sauber next year look at post #163 a few post up on this page. There is a summary and a link there to the fuller story.

Anyway here is the copies thread explaining the Alfa brand plans for the future. Basically not F1. Sauber already have a new naming rights sponsor in place to replace Alfa for 2024 and 2025 after which they become Audi or whatever. (That identity will be known on 12 th December when the official 2024 entry list is released by the FIA.


Copy of post I mentioned above.
Everso Biggyballies wrote: 4 months ago I cant remeber what thread this (Alfa brand continuing in F1) was discussed in, and cant find it in the Alfa Audi thread. We were talking about the future of Alfa Romeo as a brand name in F1. @Double Fart reminded us of the Haas branding exercise suggested earlier in the year, and more recently I had also read that was to go ahead.....

Well Alfa to Haas as an engine brand partner (Ferrari engines branded Alfa Romeo) seemed like it was progressing.Until today.
Today Alfa have said no thy will not be in F1 at all for the forseeable future..... To be honest anyone getting on board with Haas is not a partnership destined for success. Unkind but true. An article in Autosport today relays the latest news from Alfa management on its continuance in Motorsport and it seems F1 is not part of it.

Image

Alfa Romeo focused on WEC switch after ruling out staying in F1

Alfa Romeo says its focus is on a move to the World Endurance Championship, after ruling out having any more involvement in Formula 1 for now.

Alfa's title sponsorship deal with the Sauber team came to an end at last weekend’s Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, following a successful six years together.

And while Alfa Romeo was linked with a possible tie-up with Haas instead, and did speak to Haas, negotiations never got very far.

Now, Alfa Romeo CEO Jean-Philippe Imparato has explained that, with his company determined to remain in motorsport, a move to WEC is now the most likely route.

Asked about the Haas situation and why things did not progress, Imparato said: “We weren't interested in aiming to do a copy/paste operation in the style of the one done with Sauber.

“It would have led us to become one of those who puts stickers on bodywork. It would no longer have been new and we wouldn't have been part of a story.

“We started looking at something else, quickly reaching a conclusion. Alfa Romeo has nothing to do with the world of rallying, the Stellantis group already has two brands involved in Formula E, and so the focus has shifted to the WEC, a world in which Alfa Romeo has lived in the past wonderful experiences."

Imparato has explained that no final decision has been made about how Alfa Romeo would make its step into WEC though, as it was currently evaluating the most cost-efficient way of doing it.

Clearly Alfa want to be more than a stickers on a car paying someone elses bills and want something of their own. F1 is not viable for an auto manufacturer the size of Alfa without some Group support and we all know how difficult, costly and flawed the F1 process is. WEC as we have seen from the explosion of manufacturer interest and participation seems all together easier and whilst not of the same profile as F1 is on an extreme upwards trajectory as the new Hypercar /LMDh categories take off in both the US and Word wide.

I look forward to seeing the Alfa Brand return to top level Sports Car racing. Its where they should be, despite their early 1950's F1domination.

The Tip 33 series of the early 1970's were beautiful to look at and listen to. Eargasm stuff. :haha:

Image

Image


Dont overlook that with Stelantis (who now own Alfa) also own Peugeot and a joint operation or co-operation could be valid and of mutual interest. Oh I forgot they do own Maserati now as well! Own is probably the wrong word. Fiat Chrysler have moved them all under their Stellantis Operating Group. (Alfa and Maserati havent changed hands and Stellantis bought Peugeot a few years ago.)

@erwin greven.Perhaps this becomes now more of a Sports Car thread topic, but Im I am sure we will soon see the Alfa Brand in someway back in the top class of WEC.
From the Alfa boss more on their Sportscar thoughts
“The WEC world is experiencing a moment of great interest, and when there is a lot of euphoria it becomes difficult to understand what level of investment is necessary to aim for the highest goals,” he said.

“We saw in 2015 [in LMP1] that uncontrolled cost escalation ultimately rebounds, so we took some time to understand how this will all play out.

“I believe it is correct to have a clear picture and know precisely what you are facing before launching into a project."

One possibility could be to tie-up with Peugeot, which is part of the same Stellantis group.

“Obviously it's one of the scenarios we evaluated,” added Imparato

“There are already houses within the Stellantis group whose sports programmes are in close contact, for example DS and Maserati in Formula E.

“When we return to the track we will do so with the support of Stellantis' motorsport projects, and as Peugeot is already present in the WEC obviously co-operation is more than possible. Then perhaps the two projects may have parallel paths in other aspects, but in the end we are in the same family.

“However, I would like to clarify that at the moment we are not yet able to confirm anything. We will do so when we have completed the planning and evaluation of the investment".
Obviously their (Alfa) demise as an F1 identity has been driven by Audi taking over Sauber and the very badge engineering method Alfa ran latterly in F1, but they have many more options to have a more real involvement in Motor Sports with Sports cars. I would rather the Alfa brand be in Sportscars than out of F1 and no motorsport at all. Motorsport fits with thir heritage :thumbsup:

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#167

Post by Aty »

PTRACER wrote: 4 months ago I've paid so little attention to F1 this year I don't know what's even happening.

I just read Alfa Romeo is parting ways with Sauber. Can someone summarise very briefly what's happening and when?
As Everso so well documented, Alfa is out, and about in a week we should know who is a new sponsor.

Audi's involvement for now is limited to staged funding of Sauber, and nothing more. Audi related branding and team management is planned for 2026 season.

It's reported that Audi has already a new F1-PU plant built in Germany. They hired Neel Jani (Swiss) for running their simulator. Neither Sauber or Audi clarified yet extend of their collaboration on design and manufacturing of 2026 racer. Obviously there has to be some interfacing and PU integration, but I am not sure about their input into aerodynamics, which is run by (ex-McLaren) James Key.
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#168

Post by MonteCristo »

Is Peter Sauber still heavily involved himself in the team? He's hit 80 years of age now. He's at that stage when who knows what will happen and when.

Not sure I'd want to be running an F1 team at 80.

But then again, look at Roger Penske!

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#169

Post by DoubleFart »

MonteCristo wrote: 4 months ago Is Peter Sauber still heavily involved himself in the team? He's hit 80 years of age now. He's at that stage when who knows what will happen and when.

Not sure I'd want to be running an F1 team at 80.

But then again, look at Roger Penske!

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There's no greater killer of old people than retirement.

Sorry. You're next.
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#170

Post by Aty »

MonteCristo wrote: 4 months ago Is Peter Sauber still heavily involved himself in the team? He's hit 80 years of age now. He's at that stage when who knows what will happen and when.

Not sure I'd want to be running an F1 team at 80.

But then again, look at Roger Penske!

Some people are machines.
In one of his interview after his departure from the team, Peter was asked similar question. I do recall he said he is not involved at all, and he was avoiding any office visits. That was when Monisha Kaltenborn lead the team as the TP. He added that he had a beer occassionally with one or two of his former (floor) employees, but that was about all. I am not sure if things changed after Monisha left.
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#171

Post by Aty »

Aty wrote: 4 months ago
PTRACER wrote: 4 months ago I've paid so little attention to F1 this year I don't know what's even happening.

I just read Alfa Romeo is parting ways with Sauber. Can someone summarise very briefly what's happening and when?
As Everso so well documented, Alfa is out, and about in a week we should know who is a new sponsor.

Audi's involvement for now is limited to staged funding of Sauber, and nothing more. Audi related branding and team management is planned for 2026 season.

It's reported that Audi has already a new F1-PU plant built in Germany. They hired Neel Jani (Swiss) for running their simulator. Neither Sauber or Audi clarified yet extend of their collaboration on design and manufacturing of 2026 racer. Obviously there has to be some interfacing and PU integration, but I am not sure about their input into aerodynamics, which is run by (ex-McLaren) James Key.
There is more:
https://www.grandprix247.com/2023/12/05 ... -december/

Could be someone from UK.
“We cannot wait to start the partnership with our new partners, we will have I think a really fresh approach in terms of communication, and marketing, and we will do the launch of the car here in the UK,” he revealed.
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#172

Post by MonteCristo »

DoubleFart wrote: 4 months ago
MonteCristo wrote: 4 months ago Is Peter Sauber still heavily involved himself in the team? He's hit 80 years of age now. He's at that stage when who knows what will happen and when.

Not sure I'd want to be running an F1 team at 80.

But then again, look at Roger Penske!

Some people are machines.
There's no greater killer of old people than retirement.

Sorry. You're next.
It was a good run :(.
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#173

Post by Aty »

Audi held internal meeting just a few days ago (according to "manager magazin") to address unrelated matters to F1, however due to undesirable rumors at the end they felt necessary to also make a statement on management's position vis a vis F1.

Audi stays.

Great. Or is it?

Gernot Döllner (new CEO) is reportedly not a friend of the F1, which he takes as monumental waste of good cash that can be spent elsewhere. Is he then going to financially support the team through thick and thin for a decade or so? Pressure to deliver is on, as the F1 team has some mountains to climb.
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#174

Post by Michael Ferner »

Well, it's a fact that F1 is a monumental waste of good cash that can be spent elsewhere, it doesn't take a PhD to understand and know that. The question the board should be asking itself is, can we make this work as a PR exercise? Commercials are exactly the same, a monumental waste of good cash that can be spent elsewhere, but they can pay dividends if done well. Actually, there's a RoI even if done badly, and the same is probably true for F1. Members of the board are well remunerated chaps and chapettes, they should be able to figure it out.
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#175

Post by Aty »

Michael Ferner wrote: 4 months ago Well, it's a fact that F1 is a monumental waste of good cash that can be spent elsewhere, it doesn't take a PhD to understand and know that. The question the board should be asking itself is, can we make this work as a PR exercise? Commercials are exactly the same, a monumental waste of good cash that can be spent elsewhere, but they can pay dividends if done well. Actually, there's a RoI even if done badly, and the same is probably true for F1. Members of the board are well remunerated chaps and chapettes, they should be able to figure it out.
I agree with you. Gernot needs to swallow hard, and wait on delivery of (hopefully good) results. There is now talk about F1 will investigate hydrogen hybrids as replacement for current fuels. Technical challenges of that kind might appeal to him. In my understanding Döllner is an engineer, and with that background he might be more intrigued than a bookkeeper or PR person would be.
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#176

Post by Michael Ferner »

Well, considering that the business model of 90 % of all German manufacturers (including Audi) is collapsing fast, perhaps they should entertain thoughts of refocussing. I know that most CEOs and at least half of the boards are pretty blinkered, but reality will catch up with them anyhow, and fast! Earlier this year I predicted that the majority of German manufacturers will be dead in ten years. That's provocative arguing, yes, but deep sleep warrants loud shouting. I still don't see much proactive thinking in that business, so I stand by my prediction - there will be no Audi in 2033, and if they don't can the F1 plans maybe they will be gone as early as 2030...
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#177

Post by Aty »

Michael Ferner wrote: 4 months ago I stand by my prediction - there will be no Audi in 2033, and if they don't can the F1 plans maybe they will be gone as early as 2030...
There is no need for me to take sides, but under your scenario there is no need to advertise, and they should drop then the F1 immediately. Along the same lines Mercedes should follow.

I am not sure at all there is much wrong with German business model, but in broader perspective in past several years I can identify at least 7 major external (toxic, disruptive and hostile) pressure points applied upon Germany, and consequently its industrial base. I hope it will be somehow solved soon.
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#178

Post by DoubleFart »

Hydrogen hybrids. Yeah, makes total sense to have a 210mph bomb driving around city streets.

Also, it's a horribly inefficient mode of propulsion that is far from green and 3-6x worse than direct electrification.
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#179

Post by Aty »

DoubleFart wrote: 4 months ago Hydrogen hybrids. Yeah, makes total sense to have a 210mph bomb driving around city streets.

Also, it's a horribly inefficient mode of propulsion that is far from green and 3-6x worse than direct electrification.

May I remind you there was time when people rejected a thing (we know it today as an automonile) moving from point A to B without horses. Then Mercedes prove them wrong. My trust in human ingenuity is boundless. At the moment I think they are talking merely about feasibility, benefits, alternatives, etc. There will be a few reports written before anything is decided.
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#180

Post by DoubleFart »

Aty wrote: 4 months ago
DoubleFart wrote: 4 months ago Hydrogen hybrids. Yeah, makes total sense to have a 210mph bomb driving around city streets.

Also, it's a horribly inefficient mode of propulsion that is far from green and 3-6x worse than direct electrification.

May I remind you there was time when people rejected a thing (we know it today as an automonile) moving from point A to B without horses. Then Mercedes prove them wrong. My trust in human ingenuity is boundless. At the moment I think they are talking merely about feasibility, benefits, alternatives, etc. There will be a few reports written before anything is decided.
You're talking to somebody whose job it is to help people transition to zero emission transport. The reports have been written. It's inefficient and expensive.
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#181

Post by Aty »

@DoubleFart

You may need to talk to them:
FIA AND F1 TO STUDY HYDROGEN AS POWER FOR MOTORSPORT
REUTERS 8 DECEMBER, 2023 1 MIN READ
https://www.grandprix247.com/2023/12/08 ... otorsport/
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