When was the last time a débutant set the world on fire?
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When was the last time a débutant set the world on fire?
About a week ago, I watched the 1984 Monaco GP and it struck me that straight away, everyone realised Senna was going to be "one of the greats". And that was just from his performance in the Monaco GP. I believe they said the same about Bellof (although, we never got to see his true potential ).
I can't say I recall a driver in recent years who really set the world on fire in their début year - a driver who everyone thought was going to be the next Senna, or Fangio.
Do you think Michael Schumacher was the last driver to do that?
I can't say I recall a driver in recent years who really set the world on fire in their début year - a driver who everyone thought was going to be the next Senna, or Fangio.
Do you think Michael Schumacher was the last driver to do that?
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Debutant in F1? Jacques Villenueve perhaps?
Or what about in CART? Montoya taking the championship in his first year.
Or what about in CART? Montoya taking the championship in his first year.
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To be honest Hamilton has probably had more pre running any GP hype than I can recall. Senna arrived with Brundle and both had arrived with much expected after the huge battle they had had in F3, with Senna taking it in the last race. In fact Brundle scored an F1 point before Senna did, joining the debut point scorers club, although he did lose it by the year end when Tyrrell were DSQ'd
Senna actually failed to qualify for his second GP! Senna only came to people's notice in the wet at Monaco, but the truth is Bellof did better. His performances were perhaps better than the car, and retirements and a couple of accidents left him with only a handful of pointscoring races. Sennas move to Lotus was more him going to them than them chasing him. He knew Toleman wasnt a strong enough team to give him regular wins and he had a buy out clause in his contract at Toleman when he persuaded Lotus that he was the inspiration they needed to replace the recently deceased Chapman.
As for MS Wedlinger beat him in F3 before going to Sauber Mercedes in their junior programme in Sports cars. Schumacher didnt really do much in F1 until Tom Walkinshaw got the superteam together for 1992 and he had some good results then. His second season (first full season) he won 1 GP, a year after his debut. He didnt win again for over a year. His first big year was his 4th year so in reality he had no baptism of fire with winning from the outset.
Raikkonen not only scored points on debut for Sauber (which MS and Senna didnt manage), but was closer to winning a WDC in his 3rd year than either MS or Senna were. There was much hype over his inexperience and provisional superlicence / Sauber is off his head comments when he started his first race in Melbourne. There during qualifying Brundle was moved to poo-poo the critics and say 'We are looking at a future WDC here'. That he and Nick gave Sauber their most successful year ever in F1 (4th WCC) despite his many (6) mechanical DNFs.
Had it not been for Michaels brother Ralf causing a crash that took Kimi out in Germany, or the Mercedes engine then Kimi would have won the WDC in his 3rd year, losing out by 2 points. Senna was in his fifth year before he won his first WDC. MS was extraordinarily lucky to get his 1st WDC in the 4th year, given the way he did it at Adelaide, even with knocking Hill out of the race he only won by a point. That the Benneton car with which he won was was somewhat tainted in that it was suspected of several technical irregularities.
Senna actually failed to qualify for his second GP! Senna only came to people's notice in the wet at Monaco, but the truth is Bellof did better. His performances were perhaps better than the car, and retirements and a couple of accidents left him with only a handful of pointscoring races. Sennas move to Lotus was more him going to them than them chasing him. He knew Toleman wasnt a strong enough team to give him regular wins and he had a buy out clause in his contract at Toleman when he persuaded Lotus that he was the inspiration they needed to replace the recently deceased Chapman.
As for MS Wedlinger beat him in F3 before going to Sauber Mercedes in their junior programme in Sports cars. Schumacher didnt really do much in F1 until Tom Walkinshaw got the superteam together for 1992 and he had some good results then. His second season (first full season) he won 1 GP, a year after his debut. He didnt win again for over a year. His first big year was his 4th year so in reality he had no baptism of fire with winning from the outset.
Raikkonen not only scored points on debut for Sauber (which MS and Senna didnt manage), but was closer to winning a WDC in his 3rd year than either MS or Senna were. There was much hype over his inexperience and provisional superlicence / Sauber is off his head comments when he started his first race in Melbourne. There during qualifying Brundle was moved to poo-poo the critics and say 'We are looking at a future WDC here'. That he and Nick gave Sauber their most successful year ever in F1 (4th WCC) despite his many (6) mechanical DNFs.
Had it not been for Michaels brother Ralf causing a crash that took Kimi out in Germany, or the Mercedes engine then Kimi would have won the WDC in his 3rd year, losing out by 2 points. Senna was in his fifth year before he won his first WDC. MS was extraordinarily lucky to get his 1st WDC in the 4th year, given the way he did it at Adelaide, even with knocking Hill out of the race he only won by a point. That the Benneton car with which he won was was somewhat tainted in that it was suspected of several technical irregularities.
Last edited by Everso Biggyballies 17 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Villeneuve finishing second at Indy in 1994 and first in 1995. That was pretty impressive. Or Nigel Mansell (okay, not a real debutant, but just about every driver has had experience when he enters a series) in 1993, winning on most of the ovals.
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Jacques Villeneuve of course in '96 was an impressive debutant. However, his car was superior to the rest of the field, and he turned out not to be another Senna/Fangio.
Senna in 1984 was impressive, but I don't remember people at the time saying for certain that he was the next F1 standard-setter, any more than is said about, say, Kubica now or Herbert and Alesi in 1989. In some races in '84 Ayrton was somewhat anonymous, although the Toleman was a capricious vehicle.
Senna in 1984 was impressive, but I don't remember people at the time saying for certain that he was the next F1 standard-setter, any more than is said about, say, Kubica now or Herbert and Alesi in 1989. In some races in '84 Ayrton was somewhat anonymous, although the Toleman was a capricious vehicle.
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I think Alesi showed great potential in the first races of 1990 like Phoenix and Monaco. (ok, not really a debut as he made his debut one year earlier), but still, he was seen back then as a future world champion.
Others? Not really, as most of them had a few years of 'rolling into the sport'
villeneuve's debut was impressive, no doubt about that, but it's a bit easier to do that if you have the best car on the grid.
Barrichello also made a rather sensational debut, as I remember Donington he was driving incredibly well!
and Michael off course !
Others? Not really, as most of them had a few years of 'rolling into the sport'
villeneuve's debut was impressive, no doubt about that, but it's a bit easier to do that if you have the best car on the grid.
Barrichello also made a rather sensational debut, as I remember Donington he was driving incredibly well!
and Michael off course !
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Definitively Montoya back in 2001, I think that was a good example of the media forecasting a new superstar. Everyone was talking about how good he was and predicted that he'd eventually displace Michael. He didn't actually deliver his promising performance over the years, that's probably the reason why this fact is almost forgotten now, seeing that almost noone here has him on his list.PTRacer wrote:I can't say I recall a driver in recent years who really set the world on fire in their début year - a driver who everyone thought was going to be the next Senna, or Fangio.
Other than that, Villeneuve, Button and Raikkönen all were rated very high in their debut seasons as well, and the latest example probably is Robert Kubica, I think he made a similar impact on the scene last year as Schumacher did back in 1991.
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I'm not following your point here 'Ballies...Everso Biggyballies wrote:To be honest Hamilton has probably had more pre running any GP hype than I can recall. Senna arrived with Brundle and both had arrived with much expected after the huge battle they had had in F3, with Senna taking it in the last race. In fact Brundle scored an F1 point before Senna did, joining the debut point scorers club, although he did lose it by the year end when Tyrrell were DSQ'd
Senna actually failed to qualify for his second GP! Senna only came to people's notice in the wet at Monaco, but the truth is Bellof did better. His performances were perhaps better than the car, and retirements and a couple of accidents left him with only a handful of pointscoring races. Sennas move to Lotus was more him going to them than them chasing him. He knew Toleman wasnt a strong enough team to give him regular wins and he had a buy out clause in his contract at Toleman when he persuaded Lotus that he was the inspiration they needed to replace the recently deceased Chapman.
As for MS Wedlinger beat him in F3 before going to Sauber Mercedes in their junior programme in Sports cars. Schumacher didnt really do much in F1 until Tom Walkinshaw got the superteam together for 1992 and he had some good results then. His second season (first full season) he won 1 GP, a year after his debut. He didnt win again for over a year. His first big year was his 4th year so in reality he had no baptism of fire with winning from the outset.
Raikkonen not only scored points on debut for Sauber (which MS and Senna didnt manage), but was closer to winning a WDC in his 3rd year than either MS or Senna were. There was much hype over his inexperience and provisional superlicence / Sauber is off his head comments when he started his first race in Melbourne. There during qualifying Brundle was moved to poo-poo the critics and say 'We are looking at a future WDC here'. That he and Nick gave Sauber their most successful year ever in F1 (4th WCC) despite his many (6) mechanical DNFs.
Had it not been for Michaels brother Ralf causing a crash that took Kimi out in Germany, or the Mercedes engine then Kimi would have won the WDC in his 3rd year, losing out by 2 points. Senna was in his fifth year before he won his first WDC. MS was extraordinarily lucky to get his 1st WDC in the 4th year, given the way he did it at Adelaide, even with knocking Hill out of the race he only won by a point. That the Benneton car with which he won was was somewhat tainted in that it was suspected of several technical irregularities.
I think Paul was asking who was the last driver to make people sit up and take notice. Schumacher definately did that, being signed to Benetton after just 1 qualifying and 300 metres of a GP. But here's the real kicker... He went on to realise that talent he showed.
Senna also got people excited, and then fulfilled that promise. Kimi indeed has shown all the same sort of promise, but as yet, has not followed thru.
I think Nico may be the next to fulfil the promise shown in his debut year. All he needs now is the right car...
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Yeah quite remarkable. No wonder they said he was good!EB wrote:That makes his 6th place finish even more remarkableEverso Biggyballies wrote:Senna actually failed to qualify for his second GP!
Bad case of brainfade. Must have confused my RSM and RSA It should have said his 4th race, Ironically at Imola, when he failed to make the grid.
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Everso Biggyballies wrote:Yeah quite remarkable. No wonder they said he was good!EB wrote:That makes his 6th place finish even more remarkableEverso Biggyballies wrote:Senna actually failed to qualify for his second GP!
Bad case of brainfade. Must have confused my RSM and RSA It should have said his 4th race, Ironically at Imola, when he failed to make the grid.
To be fair to Senna, there were some dramas at Imola over Pirelli tyre contracts, which made it almost impossible for him to qualify.
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I thought he was going to win quite a few races and be a world championship contender (although not necessarily world champion...), but I definitely didn't think he'd displace Michael.MinardiFan wrote:Definitively Montoya back in 2001, I think that was a good example of the media forecasting a new superstar. Everyone was talking about how good he was and predicted that he'd eventually displace Michael.PTRacer wrote:I can't say I recall a driver in recent years who really set the world on fire in their début year - a driver who everyone thought was going to be the next Senna, or Fangio.
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My point is that neither Senna or MS came come close to actually winning the WDC overnight, Senna until his 5th year, and the 'real' real kicker, Michael in his 4th year under very dubious circumstances of car and driver, but won cleanly in his 5th. Not the 'instant success' people seem to think, and indeed MS didnt win a race until TW had assembled the superteam, albeit in his second year, with another win in his third in his 3rd year ......Im not saying either didnt do well, of course they did and they certainly made their mark. (Even if to many it was the WAY they did it with their 'sporting ethics')BleedingGums wrote:I'm not following your point here 'Ballies...Everso Biggyballies wrote: Schumacher didnt really do much in F1 until Tom Walkinshaw got the superteam together for 1992 and he had some good results then. His second season (first full season) he won 1 GP, a year after his debut. He didnt win again for over a year. His first big year was his 4th year so in reality he had no baptism of fire with winning from the outset.
Raikkonen not only scored points on debut for Sauber (which MS and Senna didnt manage), but was closer to winning a WDC in his 3rd year than either MS or Senna were.
Had it not been for Michaels brother Ralf causing a crash that took Kimi out in Germany, or the Mercedes engine then Kimi would have won the WDC in his 3rd year, losing out by 2 points. Senna was in his fifth year before he won his first WDC. MS was extraordinarily lucky to get his 1st WDC in the 4th year.
Schumacher definately did that, being signed to Benetton after just 1 qualifying and 300 metres of a GP. But here's the real kicker... He went on to realise that talent he showed.
Senna also got people excited, and then fulfilled that promise. Kimi indeed has shown all the same sort of promise, but as yet, has not followed thru.
I
Kimis career started better....... he led the WDC for much of his 3rd year and lost it by 2 points due to bad luck more specifically Merc engines and Ralf's insanity. He also lost the WDC in his 5th year by bad luck and car unreliability more than inability. Sure he hasnt delivered in terms of winning the WDC, but to say he hasnt delivered........ He actually delivered more in the short term.... he just hasnt converted from there!
In reality I dont know what my point was other than they all showed promise from the start, but success doesnt, didnt, hasnt, wouldnt and wont come until they get/got the right car. Some got that sooner than others......!
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