Bottom post of the previous page:
Yeah, you can watch Kyalami 9 Hours on the GT World YT channel. The track still has a lot of grass & gravel around, only two real tarmac run-offs in T1 and one other corner but they're very small compared to some of the modern concepts. The pitwall would need to change, it's basically one huge wall and not much space on the outside of the S/F stretch (a bit like Albert Park). And pit exit on the S/F stretch itself with it being so narrow poses some risk alas many people forget how long that S/F line actually was, probably the longest except Monza & Osterreichring in the "old" F1 days?Future GP's stuff, Hosting Fees and Misc Liberty / F1 income discussion
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Old circuit

1988-1991

1992

Recent track


1988-1991

1992

Recent track

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The new track is unfortunately not good. I've never enjoyed driving it on sims and never enjoyed watching a race there (as in race broadcasts on YouTube)
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BELGIAN GRAND PRIX TO HAPPEN ON ALTERNATE YEARS FROM 2026
REUTERS
https://www.grandprix247.com/2025/01/08 ... from-2026/Liberty Media-owned Formula 1 said the Belgian Grand Prix would be held in the 2026, 2027, 2029 and 2031 seasons. This year’s grand prix is already confirmed for July 27 and will also feature a Saturday sprint.
The alternate venue for 2028 and 2030 has yet to be confirmed
I have never used an obscene gesture anywhere against anyone, but now I think maybe I should.
Obviously, as seen in the image, the Belgian race is lacking fan interest.
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Thanks for those diagrams - I was a little bit confused about "replicating the old circuit", I wondered whether they'd changed it again after the nineties. Seems not. The really "old" circuit is long gone, of course, it was built over in the eighties already. Like Paul, I hated the nineties version, it's one no-overtaking section after the other. The few races I've seen there (ok, on TV) were mostly terrible.
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And that amazes me. Kyalami is VERY popular under GT3 fans. Watching the few Kyalami 9 hours races, being part of the IGTC. A big fan favourite. The track always delivered. The same with COTA, Paul Ricard and Silverstone.
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Its not so much the lack of fans. I believe the issue with Spa is one of a funding nature. The Belgian GP is only partially funded by local government leaving the bulk of the hosting fees to be paid by private promoters and investors.. I would suggest that Spa promoters are on a very marginal return, one that could easily turn into a loss should a. weekend suffer from bad weather and other factors that influence attendance levels. The likes of Spa and Silverstone and others not benefitting Government funding have to make a profit and cannot paqy the ever increasing hosting fees and be able to make a profit.Formula 1, Liberty, CVC before allowed some of the traditional races to pay less because of the attraction of those events to many of the fans, the teams etc. I believe until recently Monaco paid nothing to host a GP because of the prestige to F1 of the race and the benefits of association.Aty wrote: ↑1 month agoBELGIAN GRAND PRIX TO HAPPEN ON ALTERNATE YEARS FROM 2026
REUTERShttps://www.grandprix247.com/2025/01/08 ... from-2026/Liberty Media-owned Formula 1 said the Belgian Grand Prix would be held in the 2026, 2027, 2029 and 2031 seasons. This year’s grand prix is already confirmed for July 27 and will also feature a Saturday sprint.
The alternate venue for 2028 and 2030 has yet to be confirmed
I have never used an obscene gesture anywhere against anyone, but now I think maybe I should.
Obviously, as seen in the image, the Belgian race is lacking fan interest.
Spa has probably been paying low 20's million to Liberty to host the race. No doubt Liberty have been driving the price up because there are. other nations keen to host GPs, nations where the Governments are more than happy to fund the GPs. For instance I know several of the Middle Eastern races happily pay double or more what Spa might be paying Liberty.
In fact I posted on page 1 of this thread the hosting fees paid by each race for the rights to hold a GP. With new races wanting to come on board (ie Ruanda,) happy to pay 40 million plus Liberty are clearly going to take th bigger cheque. Traditionally the F1 owners have traded the value of the traditional circuits by reducing their fees, but now with even on those terms given the sums others are prepared to pay, nations that dont need for it to be profitable as an event.
Some races are funded by governments (Australia being one) based on the value to the local economy. The AGP attracts 400,000 people over the weekend, most of those from interstate or overseas. Restaurants, hotels, the employment generated for those services, plus the fact that those from overseas will likely come for longer than the race weekend and will visit other tourist attractions and spend more money to benefit the local economy. Then you get those (like Qatar) who just want.the prestige of the race, and are happy to pay handsomely to perhaps hide their human rights issues (aka Sportswashing). They dont care how many fans attend. They want the prestige of a GP and are happy to pay through the nose for it.
Liberty, in allowing Spa to host a race at reduced rates as they do, will no doubt replace Spa with a well paying nation for the alternate years.
In effect if you have say Silverstone, Imola Spa and other lower paying traditional races alternating, that basically reduces the calendar to say 21 or 22 races per year. So the three spare. weekends that will leave to get to the 24/25 total get flogged off to the highest bidder. Liberty pocket an extra 150 million per year just for hosting fees. The half a dozen lower paying traditional events not government funded still host a race but lternate years.
Liberty themselves could not care a rats bum how many people turn up to a race and buy a ticket. They would be happier if no one went and we all sat at home and watched the races on TV. That way Liberty can charge even more for the broadcasting rights around the globe.
They dont get the gate money, the local promoters get that. Oh, I forgot, there is one exception.... Liberty promote Las Vegas themselves so bums on seats and the admission money goes to them for Vegas.
Its a business at the end of the day and Liberty have shareholders to answer to. They want to squeeze every cent they can, and they know they cn find a better bidder for races over the likes of Spa..
It sucks but its a fact of. life.
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It's the fallout from the Ecclestone era. For decades prior to the seventies, it was national clubs (the constituents of the FIA) organizing and promoting Grands Prix for their own benefit, paying purses and appearance monies to the competitors on their own terms and using the profits for their own projects, whether that was funding the grass roots of the sport, improving country roads or mollifying local car and accesory companies (there was always the suspicion that some of the profits ended up enriching the blazers, and that may have been occasionally true, too). Then came the sponsors, and with them TV. Ecclestone realized there was real money to be made, and for starters organized the teams to bargain for a better deal of prize and appearance money, which in turn jeopardized the profits of the clubs (which were mostly run by honorary members, who didn't have the business acumen to see the possibilities). Thus, by the end of the decade Ecclestone was branching out into the business of promoting F1 races, paying (small) fees to the circuit owners and the clubs and getting bigger and bigger chunks out of the TV package, which already by the eighties made attendance figures purely incidental for him and his successors. Soon, the clubs and tracks (often the same entity) came to pay Mr. E. for the rights to hold a race, instead of collecting a fee, so for them attendance was still important to generate revenue and local business, but the general outlay had changed totally from a relatively cheap sporting event generating modest profits, to a big business shifting big sums of money around, and lining who knows how many pockets. Something got lost in the equation, however...
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Formula 1 sees its future with only eight surviving grands prix in Europe.
https://www.grandprix.com/news/spa-gp-s ... races.htmlWathelet admits that although Spa is entering the rotational scheme, the cost of the deal with Formula 1 has actually gone up.
Problems with long term contracts. F1 is moving to Africa and Asia. In terms of population, including European part of Russia, the continent comprises of about 750 Mill. people in total. I think we could do with more races, but that's not how FiA / Liberty are looking at it. As discussed extensively earlier on the forum (courtesy of EB), it's all about hosting fees, and those are keeping up with inflation.
I am not trying to enforce my views on anyone, but I think the F1 & Co. are living in a bubble, and bubbles will sooner or later burst, as they always do.
"The right amount is best".
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If F1 is a global sport, then it's a reasonable view to move it away from Europe. Heck, India alone has twice as many people as Europe, so they should have 16 races, or what? Your line of reasoning is corrupt.
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Michael, calm down. I didn't say anything about denying races to anyone. Read my post again. Yes, I would like to have more races in here, but 24 is most likely a red line. Last year some drivers were feeling unwell at the end. (And so crew members.) With sport global expansion it is quite possible, that in the future we will see even less races in Europe, ending up maybe with 4 - 6 max. I feel that is where we are heading.Michael Ferner wrote: ↑1 month ago If F1 is a global sport, then it's a reasonable view to move it away from Europe. Heck, India alone has twice as many people as Europe, so they should have 16 races, or what? Your line of reasoning is corrupt.
Issue raised in the post however were rising hosting fees. The track upkeep and chasing other venues to fill absence of the F1 race is promissing to be more than just interesting.
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Er, yes... I AM calm. Read MY post again.
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https://www.grandprix247.com/2025/02/01 ... n-trouble/South Africa’s decision to extend its deadline for Formula 1 race bids has cast fresh doubt on the return of the historic Kyalami circuit.
Noted.
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racingnews: asking fans
WHICH EUROPEAN VENUE SHOULD JOIN NEW F1 ROTATION POLICY?
What Europe will realistically get? In a few years probably three (3) races in total, and on rotation. Traditions dying with New Age.
WHICH EUROPEAN VENUE SHOULD JOIN NEW F1 ROTATION POLICY?
I didn't vote, but if I would, then I want them all every year.Germany - Hockenheim 22.83% 2019
Germany - Nurburgring 23.74% 2020
Portugal - Portimao 12.32% 2021
Turkey - Istanbul Park 11.18% 2021
France - Paul Ricard 2.73% 2022
France - Magny Cours 5.93% 2008
Spain - Barcelona 3.19% Planned 2026
Italy - Imola 7.30% Contract expires after 2025
Netherlands - Assen 10.73% Never hosted
What Europe will realistically get? In a few years probably three (3) races in total, and on rotation. Traditions dying with New Age.
"The right amount is best".
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Either race in Germany would be good (but only 1 is needed). The Portmao track in Portugal would be a tie for 2nd with Istanbul. I would be happy if any 2 of those 4 were added to the calendar.
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I copied @XcraigX's question here to answer as it is more relevant to this thread than the random thread.
I didnt realise it is the work of Tilke,
with Alex Wurz a consultant.
From Motorsport Mag last year
Qiddiya's Speed Park: a futuristic racing venue featuring video game-like sections of circuit which is likely to host the F1 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix from as early as 2027........ features 21 corners and 108m of elevation change, as it winds past rollercoasters and underneath suspended swimming pools.......
Its erm quite futuristic

Extracts from the Motorsport Mag article on Qiddya (full article linked):
Oh and there is an artificial (animated?) video of if what looks as impressive as it does nasty.
Dont hold your breath. The word mañana is much used in Spain re. starting projects
It seem to be planned for 2027 now, with a maybe. More worrying is that Saudi are quite open to the idea of running 2 GPs per year, one at Jeddah and one at Qiddya.
I didnt realise it is the work of Tilke,

From Motorsport Mag last year
Qiddiya's Speed Park: a futuristic racing venue featuring video game-like sections of circuit which is likely to host the F1 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix from as early as 2027........ features 21 corners and 108m of elevation change, as it winds past rollercoasters and underneath suspended swimming pools.......
Its erm quite futuristic

Extracts from the Motorsport Mag article on Qiddya (full article linked):
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... ce-jeddah/Its focal point will be at Turn 1 — otherwise known as ‘The Blade’ — which rises 70 metres (or 20 stories) above a concert space located below; more than double the 30m climb to COTA’s dramatic Turn 1 hairpin......
....the track includes a section described as a street circuit, as well as large high-speed areas which look similar to Suzuka‘s ‘Esses’ or the final sweeping corners at Spa-Francorchamps, with multiple configurations clearly able to be used......
..... Saudi Arabia has long intended that the new development will replace the current Jeddah street circuit as the venue for its Formula 1 Grand Prix, but officials have also said that the government is open to retaining the Jeddah race and hosting two F1 rounds per season.
Oh and there is an artificial (animated?) video of if what looks as impressive as it does nasty.
I wouldnt bet the house on it. In fact a couple of bucks would be a stretch. This article from last week suggests 2026 is 'ambitious' at best and from what I read even 2027 is pushing crap uphill..... It seems they have not even elected a contractor yet and are talking of not starting work until the second half of this year, with mention of a 12 month possible delay to the GP if the track and infrastructure isnt finished. Also a bit of a tiff over who is paying for everything, taxpayer or private investors and general political bickering.XcraigX wrote: And do we actually believe the Madrid "Street circuit" will happen next year? Or is it all just hopefulness and wishes?
Dont hold your breath. The word mañana is much used in Spain re. starting projects
Mayor of Madrid, Jose Luis Martinez-Almeida, said the event will be a "grand success."
Although the city's government has come under fire from opposing politcal parties due to the suggestion the funds to bring the event to Madrid would come from the public arks, Martinez-Almeida has replied that the Madrid GP will be paid for with private investments, in an attempt to simmer the waters around the whole affair, adding that the F1 race "will be held, and it will be a grand success."
Madrid gets ready to host their first ever F1 race
"We are confident that the works will begin during the second half of this year because we are almost ready for the Formula 1 Grand Prix to be held next year. Therefore, we have to have the circuit and all the infrastructure ready," said the mayor on Monday at Europa Press' 'Desayunos Madrid'.
However, the 5,4 km, 20-turn street circuit must be completed by the summer of 2026, when the race weekend is set to take place, although it is said that if work on the track needs a bit more time, then the 14 months deadline may be extended.
Despite the various bidders to build the track and its infrastructure, the city's government is yet to pick one and there are still several burocratic processes to clear before the actual event is a go such as its environmental evaluation and Madrid's City Council's approval of 'the special plan' for the area's use, which is expected to be put forward early February, after it failed to meet the early January deadline. So, despite the confidence from the City's Mayor, there's still much to do before Madrid can actually call themselves an F1 race host.
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